W204 vs W212, I4 vs V6 - lots of questions

[charger]

Hello, I've been lurking this and several other MB forums for some time to gather info and think that now is the time to ask questions that have stayed unanswered before I go to sale person. Like to have my mind made up so they can't trick me into anything.
I know that only I can tell which model suits me best, but I hardly believe I could try all of these models and engines in both lines of equipment.

Budget stretching to get all models possible, but would like to get best buy rather than the most expensive because money can always run out.
Here is a list of models I'm interested in and prices of them, when translated to pounds:
- C220 CDI - 38.180 £
- C250 CDI - 40.525 £
- C350 CDI - 42.445 £
- E220 CDI - 50.000 £
- E250 CDI - 54.415 £
- E350 CDI - 61.300 £

Optional equipment I decided to take is:
- Elegance/Avantgarde
- metallic color
- Becker map pilot
- HK sound
- automatic gearbox
- and some other little things not worth mentioning

I'm interested in comfy ride, with decent handling, no need for an AMG handling but then again don't want to have to go into corners with maximum 10 MPH, and also definitely don't want to get sea sick from wallowing, rather Avantgarde and a worser suspension, as far as a comfort goes, than to get a boat.
Engine power not very important because even W212 E220 CDI is capable of breaking the law easily, I have no need for 0-60 in 3 seconds because for almost every need 220 CDI is more than capable as far as I know.
But what is important is refinement, I don't need complete silence inside but definitely don't want to spend a lot of money to get something that will be as loud as an inside of a disco. To get more precisely, for me 1.9 TDI engine in Golf mk3 is very refined engine and i guess that every one of these engines is more refined than 1.9 TDI, but what's bugging me are people calling I4 CDI unrefined. So can anyone tell me how big the difference between CDI engine refinement and 1.9 TDI engine is?
And I also know that the cost of maintenance of V6 is higher than that of I4 but for how much more?

In short, interested in:
- the most important reliability, for I plan to have this car at least 10+ years
- comfortable ride, with decent handling, but not wallowy (if thats even possible)
- refined engine (no need for tomb silence, but more silent than 1.9 TDI)
- relatively reasonable MPG and cost of maintenance

So my question is which model with what engine do you recommended for me and which line of equipment?

Asking this to get me some starting tips.
That's all I could thing of right now what's bugging me, and sry for the long post

 

[st4]

All the 4pot engines are refined but the V6's more so but the 4clyinders are fine compared to a 1.9TDi Golf.

However, brand new, and long term, the 220/250cdi are very new design engines and we don't know what could wrong, the V6 is more proven and is not bad reliability wise, but its hardly an example of the best engine ever made either.

I'd take a punt on a C220cdi/C250cdi or C350cdi. They are a lot cheaper than the E's you quote on the price list and unless you need the extra space, why bother carrying it.

 

[charger]

All the 4pot engines are refined but the V6's more so but the 4clyinders are fine compared to a 1.9TDi Golf.

However, brand new, and long term, the 220/250cdi are very new design engines and we don't know what could wrong, the V6 is more proven and is not bad reliability wise, but its hardly an example of the best engine ever made either.

I'd take a punt on a C220cdi/C250cdi or C350cdi. They are a lot cheaper than the E's you quote on the price list and unless you need the extra space, why bother carrying it.

Thanks very much. You've been very helpful.
Just remembered something more, if it isn't a problem.
I thought these V6 are new, or I got something mixed, that they are now 2 turbos. Is that going to affect reliability or it don't mean nothing reliability wise. I know two things are more likely to broke than one, but I'm wondering if there are possible early problems with this engine because of it's added turbo (if they added it on V6)?
Also, still wondering Elegance or Avantgarde setup and is it worth to get V6 over I4.
And why do the people complain about the sound of an I4 CDI if it's better than 1.9 TDI which I find very nice and refined, just a slight diesel clutter but nothing much and I'm in my early 20s with excellent functioning ears.

 

[Frugal]

There were some widely reported injector problems with the 4cl cdi engines in the W204 but these had been ironed out before I bought mine (C250) 8 months ago. For what it's worth, I have had no engine reliability troubles in the first 12k miles and am happy with both the performance and economy. That said, i've also heard good things about the 6cl models and there certainly seems to be a step up in perceived refinement. Pricewise, I'm sure you can chip a few £000s off the list price if you enjoy a haggle. Online sites like Broadspeed are offering £4-6k off the models you list so main dealers should get close to matching these discounts if that's the way you want to go plus there are some good dealer fincnance packeges around.

 

[grober]

Are you buying the car in the UK? because there are detailed changes to what's available on the UK market. i.e. No C class Avantgarde trim no E class Elegance trim until now but may be changing?? there may also be some engine restrictions on certain trim levels ----its a bit of a minefield so don't go and spec an imaginary car that you can't actually buy without checking with your dealer in detail --- and even then!!! e.g. You can spec a new "Elegance" C class by buying the luxury pack = £2K on a SE car but the elegance model "per se" does not exist in the UK market as of June 2012 production. Normally you could see all these spec interactions on the MB UK website configurator but its been down for weeks now!

ps with today's electronic laden cars you might want to revise your projected 10 year ownership to a more realistic 5 years ??

pps if your VW 1.9 diesel is a PD= pumpe duse Unit Injector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It will outlast any of the more recent common rail diesel injector systems provided you change the cam belt and use the correct oil. PD technology was a direct lift from the commercial diesel engine market-- rough but lasts for ever. It was reckoned VW lost money on the PD engines= they were over engineered in the old MB way.

 

[st13phil]

pps if your VW 1.9 diesel is a PD= pumpe duse Unit Injector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It will outlast any of the more recent common rail diesel injector systems provided you change the cam belt and use the correct oil. PD technology was a direct lift from the commercial diesel engine market-- rough but lasts for ever. It was reckoned VW lost money on the PD engines= they were over engineered in the old MB way.

Agree that the PD injection system is an order of magnitude more durable than Common Rail. BTW, it was Bosch who lost money on those engines, not VW

 

[Deleted member 65149]

ps with today's electronic laden cars you might want to revise your projected 10 year ownership to a more realistic 5 years ??

Having just bought mine with a projected ownership of 10 years, I'm intrigued to know why you said this. Are you suggesting that electronics are unlikely to last 10 years? If so, we better bring down lots of satellites and pull up lots of submarine cable repeaters (amplifiers) that have been in service for well over 10 years!

 

[Troon]

ps with today's electronic laden cars you might want to revise your projected 10 year ownership to a more realistic 5 years ??

As a counterpoint, nothing electronic has failed on my 6 year old S211 yet, apart from the passenger sunvisor lamp microswitch. Also, this.

 

[GordonTarling]

Don't worry about the 10 year thing, it'll be a heap of rust by then!

 

[st4]

V6 is a single turbo. The I4 has two turbos and rear facing timing gear and a very complex manifold set up.

 

[Juani]

Hi iv come from Golf 2.0 170ps to c220cdi 170ps, and so glad i have, you cant really compare them to each other. one thing i will say is, the Merc is 5mpg beter than the Golf was.

 

[grober]

If so, we better bring down lots of satellites and pull up lots of submarine cable repeaters (amplifiers) that have been in service for well over 10 years!

The Voyager program is a U.S program that launched two unmanned space missions, scientific probes Voyager 1 and Voyager 2.

All I can say is that if you think MB electronics --good as they are ---are built to the ruggedised quality and built in redundancy of the aforementioned systems I think you are deceiving yourself.

Cars--- with inherent moisture, vibration , heat and the occasional high voltage spike are a tough environment for digital electronics in the long term imho .

 

[charger]

There were some widely reported injector problems with the 4cl cdi engines in the W204 but these had been ironed out before I bought mine (C250) 8 months ago. For what it's worth, I have had no engine reliability troubles in the first 12k miles and am happy with both the performance and economy. That said, i've also heard good things about the 6cl models and there certainly seems to be a step up in perceived refinement. Pricewise, I'm sure you can chip a few £000s off the list price if you enjoy a haggle. Online sites like Broadspeed are offering £4-6k off the models you list so main dealers should get close to matching these discounts if that's the way you want to go plus there are some good dealer fincnance packeges around.

I know about injector problems but that's not bugging me cause it's only a problem for older W204s not post facelift ones. Thanks for sharing 1st hand experience.
Could you tell me how refined (is there a lot of wind noise, is an engine sounding harsh?) it's at around 85, 90 mph and how much fuel does it spend when cruising at that speed?
P.S. Should have said before, but I'm not from the UK. Asking on this forum because as far as I saw, here was the best place to get information about diesel Mercs.

Are you buying the car in the UK?

Nope, as said above, not even living in UK. That's why I said that prices are translated to pounds.
Here, as far as I know for at least W204 and W212, we can have any engine with either of equipment packages (SE/Elegance/Avantgarde), except for the V6 engines where it isn't possible to pick the SE line of the equipment.
Also for W204 V6 you get to choose between Elegance or Avantgarde without any additional charge, for W212 that's not the case, you have to pay for it.

ps with today's electronic laden cars you might want to revise your projected 10 year ownership to a more realistic 5 years ??

Projected ownership is probably closer to a minimum of 15 years rather than 10. I will not have that much money to change car every 5 years, and definitely don't want to spend that much money to get a piece of trash that would brake after few years, that's why I'm looking to get the best buy now so I can sleep like a baby and not to worry will my car start after 5 years I have it. If I wanted to change car every 5 years I would get a fiat or something like that
I don't live in a country where changing car every 5 years is a possible thing to do for a regular Joe.
If it can't make at least 15 years / 150.000 miles without any serious problems than in my opinion it doesn't deserve to be named the Mercedes.

pps if your VW 1.9 diesel is a PD= pumpe duse Unit Injector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It will outlast any of the more recent common rail diesel injector systems provided you change the cam belt and use the correct oil. PD technology was a direct lift from the commercial diesel engine market-- rough but lasts for ever. It was reckoned VW lost money on the PD engines= they were over engineered in the old MB way.

I belive I have even older version of 1.9 TDI, the one that predates 1.9 TDI PD, it serves me well. But I reckon a change is needed as this car is almost 20 years old (got it used) and since I've got some money at the moment I should get a Mercedes that shall serve me well for a lot of years to come.

 

[Frugal]

Could you tell me how refined (is there a lot of wind noise, is an engine sounding harsh?) it's at around 85, 90 mph and how much fuel does it spend when cruising at that speed?

In the UK of course I would never get above the national speed limit (70mph)! Engine is quiet unless asked to work hard but 70 equates to about 1800 rpm so it's little more than ticking over at that speed. Wind noise at speed is good as is road rumble but I guess this depends to a degree on tyre selection - I have the factory fitted Continentals which are wearing pretty well. Fuel consumption rises with speed of course but at 70 I get just over 60mpg on the OBC which is somewhat optimistic. At a steady 60 I get 70+mpg on the OBC and have squeezed 80mpg out of it at around 55mph on smooth road surface. I would expect around 50mpg at 85-90. This is the 6 gear manual of course.

 

[Mr E]

In my E250 (W212) I've averaged 44mpg over the first 1900 miles - a good mix of motorway, back roads, and towns. Much more refined that my W/S211, which were never unrefined anyway.

I've got the Avantgarde spec - in fact I've always gone for that spec except on the W202 I had - and am very happy with the comfort.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

If so, we better bring down lots of satellites and pull up lots of submarine cable repeaters (amplifiers) that have been in service for well over 10 years!

The Voyager program is a U.S program that launched two unmanned space missions, scientific probes Voyager 1 and Voyager 2.

All I can say is that if you think MB electronics --good as they are ---are built to the ruggedised quality and built in redundancy of the aforementioned systems I think you are deceiving yourself.

Cars--- with inherent moisture, vibration , heat and the occasional high voltage spike are a tough environment for digital electronics in the long term imho .

Communications electronics are designed and constructed for performance and endurance, just as vehicle electronics are. The environment for geostationary satellites orbiting the earth at 22k miles and for submarine cable repeaters at depths of greater than 1500 metres is FAR tougher than for any car. The component selection processes is more arduous for these systems, but the basic technology is the same as for cars. I know this because I used to be involved in the design and quality assurance of submarine cable systems.

Of course there can and will be failures, but electronic components are still more reliable than their mechanical cousins. Just because you can't see what's making them work doesn't mean that they're going to fail in five minutes! And when did you last see a rusty microprocessor?

 

[grober]

Communications electronics are designed and constructed for performance and endurance, just as vehicle electronics are. The environment for geostationary satellites orbiting the earth at 22k miles and for submarine cable repeaters at depths of greater than 1500 metres is FAR tougher than for any car. The component selection processes is more arduous for these systems, but the basic technology is the same as for cars. I know this because I used to be involved in the design and quality assurance of submarine cable systems.

Of course there can and will be failures, but electronic components are still more reliable than their mechanical cousins. Just because you can't see what's making them work doesn't mean that they're going to fail in five minutes! And when did you last see a rusty microprocessor?

Never seen a rusty microprocessor but plenty of corroded circuit boards they are mounted on. As I said its not necessarily the electronics per se but their environment. I see a rather disturbing trend in recent MB models to mount the engine ECU directly on the engine- there may be good technical or manufacturing reasons for this but lets take the scenario where that 50p clip on one of the cooling hoses goes or it splits and the overheating engine " cooks" the microprocessor board---- any system is only as reliable as its weakest link . As the software of these systems gets more complicated I predict that the lifetime of official MB support for such systems will shorten. The hardware may still be operational but will anyone have the hardware/software expertise to effect an economic repair in ten years?? To be fair MB have a good record in supporting " legacy product" to use today's jargon but sometimes "wanting to " and " being able to" don't always equate. Witness the current software debacle with the Becker Map pilot http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/electronics/134159-becker-map-pilot-2-0-49-upgrade-8.html ---- and that's a current product!!--- I'm sure MB UK want to solve it for their customers-- it's just not within their power to do so. Just like the Delphi Injectors --- not their fault- they didn't make em --- but didn't get the cars back on the road.


p.s. this is not just a "Mercedes thing" its a modern day problem in so many electronic devices. Take that 3 year old LCD television that breaks down--- the entire circuitry is on one board-- or maybe two-- a power board and a signal processing board.. They are multiple layer boards festooned with chips - individual component replacement is almost impossible - so board replacement is the only way forward. The set cost £500 to buy 3 years ago--- the signal board costs £100 if you can source one the labour to repair comes to £80--- so spend £180 and get a repaired 3 year old set or buy a new and possibly better equivalent for £300 with a years warranty?

 

[charger]

In the UK of course I would never get above the national speed limit (70mph)! Engine is quiet unless asked to work hard but 70 equates to about 1800 rpm so it's little more than ticking over at that speed. Wind noise at speed is good as is road rumble

Maximum allowed speed is 70 mph?
How do you people live with that?
And I thought we were having it bad with 130 km/h (about 81 mph) on highways.
P.S. Don't know if it's just a myth or what, but shouldn't a car run at 2.500-3.000 rpms for best performance and longevity?