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Witnessed a big "off"

Not to go too far off topic - Is that true Mr Swiss..?

Would nothing happen if I walked into a Police station and said - I have to confess, I have been driving at 100mph and please prosecute me to teach me a lesson...?

Could they do nothing about it. (other than tell me I'm a T**T).?
 
Not to go too far off topic - Is that true Mr Swiss..?

Would nothing happen if I walked into a Police station and said - I have to confess, I have been driving at 100mph and please prosecute me to teach me a lesson...?

Could they do nothing about it. (other than tell me I'm a T**T).?

Speeding requires corroboration for conviction.

That can be 2 cops, 1 cop and a calibrated speedo, 1 cop and an uncalibrated speedo shown to be accurate, a photo and a radar reading...

If you walked into a Police Station and said you wanted to confess driving at 100mph, you'd do well to get to speak to a cop...

:mad:

Street Cops are faaaaaaaar more interested in arresting burglars than persecuting motorists - possibly drink-drivers excepted - but they do have to stop a few innocent motorists to hone the skill of picking the guilty ones...
 
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Never take advice from a bloke on t'internet (particularly if he calls himself floggle :) )

"Without prejudice" would make no difference whatsoever.

And there is no risk that you could be prosecuted for speeding.

Not least as the offence requires corroboration.

:rolleyes:

Speeding requires corroboration for conviction.

That can be 2 cops, 1 cop and a calibrated speedo, 1 cop and an uncalibrated speedo shown to be accurate, a photo and a radar reading...

Isn't it the case that the above relates to one officer's opinion of a motorist's speed, which is generally regarded as insufficient? That is to say a policeman standing on the pavement, no radar, just saying what he saw, and expressing an opinion as to speed?

Why is one cop's evidence of an admission of guilt insufficient?

Having said that, I would guess the prosecution of a potentially important [and palpably honest] witness seems very unlikely on public interest grounds.

PS Sorry if we are hijacking the thread
 
Isn't it the case that the above relates to one officer's opinion of a motorist's speed, which is generally regarded as insufficient? That is to say a policeman standing on the pavement, no radar, just saying what he saw, and expressing an opinion as to speed?

Why is one cop's evidence of an admission of guilt insufficient?

Having said that, I would guess the prosecution of a potentially important [and palpably honest] witness seems very unlikely on public interest grounds.

PS Sorry if we are hijacking the thread


One officers opinion if not corroborated is not sufficient to prosecute for speeding - each of the examples are of how the evidence might be corroborated .

RTRA 1984 s.89(2) prevents prosecution where no corroborating evidence exists;

(2) A person prosecuted for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted solely on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, in the opinion of the witness, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle at a speed exceeding a specified limit.

As you are aware, the hearsay evidence example you give would not be evidence of the offence at all.

Public interest would not come into it, it does not even reach that stage.
 
Thanks for posting the Act - it says, I hope, what I was trying to say?

I'm not wanting to flame/argue/criticise at all, so please accept this is posted in good spirit rather than in an attempt to score points - its just that people are sometimes inclined to accept what is posted by way of advice, and as you rightly say, it's not sensible to accept everything that is posted as gospel. :)

So the one final thing we should perhaps try and clear up - I don't follow why you say an admission of speeding would not be evidence of the offence at all - why would it be any different from an admission to any other sort of offence?

My concern that it might be sufficient [particularly if Robert, if asked, were to sign a witness statement containing the admission] is what led me to say that I didn't think that a prosecution would follow anyway - but I feel it might be prudent for him to seek some assurance from the officer?

Regards,

Guy
 
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I was in Lytham today and my lovely hire car was a Citroen C4 - yuk!!!

You poor soul! I was at St Annes yesterday, the only place for a business lunch was a Harvester...

Still to feed and water 4 folks for £25 was not too bad. :)
 
You poor soul! I was at St Annes yesterday, the only place for a business lunch was a Harvester...

Still to feed and water 4 folks for £25 was not too bad. :)

There's not much there it has to be said :D :D Luckily I don't do lunch when I'm there ;)
 
One officers opinion if not corroborated is not sufficient to prosecute for speeding - each of the examples are of how the evidence might be corroborated .

RTRA 1984 s.89(2) prevents prosecution where no corroborating evidence exists;

(2) A person prosecuted for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted solely on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, in the opinion of the witness, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle at a speed exceeding a specified limit.

As you are aware, the hearsay evidence example you give would not be evidence of the offence at all.

Public interest would not come into it, it does not even reach that stage.
:o First off it gives me no pleasure to disagree with Swiss Toni as he is a person I hold in the highest regard and hopefully I may be in the wrong for what I am about to suggest.

First off there is NO WAY I can see Robert being prosecuted for his remarks made in his statement BUT..............

Driver X is stopped by the police and found to have no driving licence insurance or MOT. During the interview and whilst under caution this person brags about driving at 50 mph along the High Street. The police officer rebukes the driver for breaking the speed limit, and asks how he knows he was travelling at 50mph. The defendant then states that he looked at his speedometer and saw that it showed exactly 50mph. These words are said under caution and the driver is reminded of this and is adamant about the speed and just laughs in the officer's face.

To confirm the accuracy of the speedometer, whilst the car is taken to a compound the police officer travels along the local authority measured mile and records the length of time taken to travel this distance (a calibrated stop watch was used :))

To me the deal is done and a prosecution for speeding could (not would)very easily be proved and all on the self confessed act of driver X?

To me I read your post as saying one person alone cannot give an opinion of speed and yes to a degree I agree BUT...... The corroboration only needs to be something like radar, stop watch, truvelo? (can't spell it) or any other corroboration deemed acceptable but still only one person giving an opinion.

One person gives an opinion, then has it corroborated by gadgetry.

Robert said he was speeding (one person) then if he then said he saw the speedometer was showing a speed of 85mph that is the corroboration? To have a belt and braces prosecution then get the speedometer checked?

Hopefully my post will be accepted as an intellectual debate rather than being argumentative.:)

What a pity we have lost plodd.

Health Warning
I am NOT a serving Police Officer, I am a bloke on t'Internet :D :o

Regards
John
 
Never take advice from a bloke on t'internet (particularly if he calls himself floggle :) )

"Without prejudice" would make no difference whatsoever.

And there is no risk that you could be prosecuted for speeding.

Not least as the offence requires corroboration.

:rolleyes:

Quite a smart comment - actually "without prejudice" statements do have some value - refer to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33).
 
The simple words "without prejudice" may be sufficient .

"I am prepared to state that the two vehicles were exceeding my speed by some considerable amount - my speed at the time briefly may have been around 85mph during an overtaking maneuver . I make this verbal statement without prejudice to my right not to make a statement or to silence"

quote]

I must admit I thought that 'Without Prejudice' only applied in contract law.

Steve
 
I thought that "without prejudice" only has grounds in the areas of negotiation and mediation - the purpose is to encourage parties to resolve disputes without going to law, but with the option of going to litigation if negotiations breaking down and either party being able to use such evidence to prove liability, etc.

Even in this situation, the court could overturn the "without prejudice" stance without agreement from both parties if it believes that such statements are prejudicial to proceedings. Hence slashing around the words on documents, etc, serves little purpose without proper legal advice.

If the simple view is taken that "without prejudice" is a get-out to anything, we'd couch any statement and letter with these words.....
 
I thought that "without prejudice" only has grounds in the areas of negotiation and mediation - the purpose is to encourage parties to resolve disputes without going to law, but with the option of going to litigation if negotiations breaking down and either party being able to use such evidence to prove liability, etc.

Even in this situation, the court could overturn the "without prejudice" stance without agreement from both parties if it believes that such statements are prejudicial to proceedings. Hence slashing around the words on documents, etc, serves little purpose without proper legal advice.

If the simple view is taken that "without prejudice" is a get-out to anything, we'd couch any statement and letter with these words.....

The fact that many people don't creates many problems after the event.

In this case a verbal statement wouldn't have been enough in what seemed to be a serious incident (albeit the guy that probably would have got in most trouble wasn't involved)

It's the same with police hearsay - I believe they call it "contemporaneous" evidence which in fact makes a mockery of the official caution.

In what I have read the words "without prejudice" may have some sway in criminal law, perhaps someone in the know can clarify.
My post was in fact a reaction to a somewhat sarcastic post from someone who I think may be a police officer. From experience whilst many officers learn what they need to to pinch people , if they were that good the CPS wouldn't frequently drop cases. I certainly wouldn't trust a policeman in the situation mentioned not to try something smarmy, 'twould be quite a kick in teeth while trying to help, but it does happen.

I suppose it goes some way to explain why many people don't want to have any dealings with the police and unless personally involved and have no choice tend to just drive on.
 
The simple words "without prejudice" may be sufficient .

"I am prepared to state that the two vehicles were exceeding my speed by some considerable amount - my speed at the time briefly may have been around 85mph during an overtaking maneuver . I make this verbal statement without prejudice to my right not to make a statement or to silence"

I must admit I thought that 'Without Prejudice' only applied in contract law.

Steve

Failing that do the easy thing and refuse to help.
 
Driver X is stopped by the police and found to have no driving licence insurance or MOT. During the interview and whilst under caution this person brags about driving at 50 mph along the High Street. The police officer rebukes the driver for breaking the speed limit, and asks how he knows he was travelling at 50mph. The defendant then states that he looked at his speedometer and saw that it showed exactly 50mph. These words are said under caution and the driver is reminded of this and is adamant about the speed and just laughs in the officer's face.

To confirm the accuracy of the speedometer, whilst the car is taken to a compound the police officer travels along the local authority measured mile and records the length of time taken to travel this distance (a calibrated stop watch was used :))

To me the deal is done and a prosecution for speeding could (not would)very easily be proved and all on the self confessed act of driver X?

To me I read your post as saying one person alone cannot give an opinion of speed and yes to a degree I agree BUT...... The corroboration only needs to be something like radar, stop watch, truvelo? (can't spell it) or any other corroboration deemed acceptable but still only one person giving an opinion.

One person gives an opinion, then has it corroborated by gadgetry.

Robert said he was speeding (one person) then if he then said he saw the speedometer was showing a speed of 85mph that is the corroboration? To have a belt and braces prosecution then get the speedometer checked?

Hopefully my post will be accepted as an intellectual debate rather than being argumentative.:)

Regards
John

John

The bottom line is, no, could not prosecute.

Corroboration could be another suitable person or equipment. But a person could not be prosecuted on their own evidence alone or in the case of speeding, on the evidence that was not corroborated.

Speeding is one of the very few offences that require corroboration.

fredfloggle - :crazy: :D :crazy: :D :crazy: :D :crazy: :D
 
But a person could not be prosecuted on their own evidence alone
I think we are both saying the same thing. One person cannot give an opinion about speed, they need the corroboration of 'something' The something can be a speedometer.

Person saying they were travelling at 85mph, not acceptable

Person saying they were travelling at 85mph and this is corroborated by the speedometer is acceptable.

John
 
John

The bottom line is, no, could not prosecute.

Corroboration could be another suitable person or equipment. But a person could not be prosecuted on their own evidence alone or in the case of speeding, on the evidence that was not corroborated.

Speeding is one of the very few offences that require corroboration.

Corroboration

Sorry Swiss Toni, but I see it slightly differently. I agree with John; he has recognised the strength of a confession, [as opposed to an opinion] but is trying to accommodate your view that supporting evidence is necessary - I don't think it always is required. My thinking, based on how I read the statute, and particularly the words in bold below -


RTRA 1984 s.89(2) A person prosecuted for such an offence shall not be liable to be convicted solely on the evidence of one witness to the effect that, in the opinion of the witness, the person prosecuted was driving the vehicle at a speed exceeding a specified limit.


is that you could be prosecuted, [but not convicted] if the only evidence that you were exceeding the speed limit was the opinion of a witness to your driving that you were going faster than x mph [where x = the limit].

I read that as meaning that supporting evidence is required where the only evidence of excess speed is somebody's opinion - eg I saw him go past and in my opinion he was going far faster than 30mph. It implies therefore, that the opinion of 2 civilians would suffice.

I don't think we disagree about what other evidence might corroborate an opinion; I just don't think you need other evidence if the case doesn't rely solely on an opinion. I don't think a confession is an opinion.


An admission of speeding

An admission is not the opinion of a witness, but a confession by the person committing the offence, which would therefore not require corroboration.

A voluntary admission or confession [voluntary = no trick, torture, etc etc to obtain it] is acceptable evidence in a criminal case, which could give rise to a successful prosecution in many circumstances.

Without Prejudice

I agree with Steve, Mr E and Swiss - no practical effect in these circumstances.

This thread

I felt that if Robert were to sign a witness statement containing a voluntary admission that he was doing 85 in a 70 limit he might be prosecuted. There seemed to me to be at least the possibility, given that a police investigation was apparently about to begin.

My instinct - that he would be no more than a witness, and that the police would not be interested in prosecuting him - remains. But the fact is that investigations do not always result in the hoped for outcome; and though I don't think for a moment that it's the case here, posters sometimes give a partial account of their own behaviour, and others involved - those whose accounts we haven't heard, but who one might expect to be defendants - might try and shift the blame, or share it by implicating the 'witness' - in this case, Robert.

So - if he is to be a witness, I think Robert's frankness will probably be regarded as an asset in a witness, and there would be no public interest in prosecuting him. But on the other hand, were others to decide to implicate him by reference to the manner of his driving, so that a different view was taken by the police, any voluntary admission about his speed could be viewed in a different light,and used against him.

That's why I think it would be prudent, if asked to 'help' the police, to seek their assurance that he is being treated purely as a witness, and that he is not himself under investigation, or consideration for prosecution for an offence of speeding, or any other offence arising out of the events.

Robert - I hope you forgive me for using your post again in this reply - nothing I have written is meant to discomfort or worry you at all. I hope the example of what might occur is purely illustrative, rather than realistic or worrying! As Swiss Toni [I think] posted earlier, take no notice of what is posted on the internet by some random bloke you don't know.

And for the avoidance of any doubt, I mean me :o :o
 

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