C350e owners club

[Deleted member 126969]

Same results last night:
- charged from 10% to 100%
- app reported 1hr 28mins of charging
- electricity meter reported 3.7kW (higher than base load) for 55mins, dropping to 1kW after 70mins and completing after 90mins

In total, about 4kWh for an estimated battery size of 4.4kWh. Time to move in to something less frustrating - February has been amazingly sunny and my solar panels are brilliant. [emoji3]

That sounds like a plan! I’ll try too.

Mine too, had 83kWh so far this month. And the Tesla Powerwall seems to be behaving

 

[Mikep2]

Hi guys, after the recent post on charging measurements I’ve got the bug so here’s my thoughts.
My 350e is 14 months old so battery I think is in close to new condition.
My charge yesterday from 11% to 100% showed that 5.554 kWh was put into the battery to show 14 miles range. Charge time was 1h 53m @ 2.9kw (13amp setting).

Screenshot shows my theory of how the battery is setup, no way of knowing how accurate this is but does line up with my charging figures.

What I don’t understand is where the 22 amp hours on the previously posted report comes from. This equates to 5 kWh and can’t represent a new battery capacity as all of my charges are in excess of 5.3kwh.
My figures show that the capacity should be more like 24 amp hours which would put the battery in the report down 66%

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Without knowing battery voltage, the Ah capacity isn't enough for working out the energy it can store - bit like having torque but not rpm.

What voltage are you assuming for your calculations?

If we accept the capacity is 6.3kWh and 22Ah, then voltage comes out at 286V...but as always, lots of guessing and assuming in that!

 

[Darrener]

Hi Guys, got my 350e back on Friday 9th Feb, the dealership fitted a new fuel pipe and so far no petrol smells, currently on a trip to newcastle did 150 miles from home ave 48 mpg, about half and half urban and motorway, actually charged to 12 miles but in reality got about 9 on electric only but it was stop start, and its cold down here. so I dont think i did too badly.

 

[CaptainChaos]

48mpg sounds pretty good for a mixed journey of 150 miles.
Have you had a go at pre-conditioning so you can get into a lovely warm car?

 

[Darrener]

Yes but today i got the message that the battery was low, im guess thats the key battery, but after a bit of journey its okay again!!!

 

[Mikep2]

Without knowing battery voltage, the Ah capacity isn't enough for working out the energy it can store - bit like having torque but not rpm.

What voltage are you assuming for your calculations?

If we accept the capacity is 6.3kWh and 22Ah, then voltage comes out at 286V...but as always, lots of guessing and assuming in that!

Chris, my charge box app shows the the voltage varying between 230 to 235 during charge.
As the bottom 10% is not useable that’s why only 90% of the 6.2 kWh can be recharged so this is the area where the degradation will be seen.
I’m probably missing something fundamental, think I’ll try and get a battery check done at my next service.

 

[Mikep2]

Hi Guys, got my 350e back on Friday 9th Feb, the dealership fitted a new fuel pipe and so far no petrol smells, currently on a trip to newcastle did 150 miles from home ave 48 mpg, about half and half urban and motorway, actually charged to 12 miles but in reality got about 9 on electric only but it was stop start, and its cold down here. so I dont think i did too badly.

Think you did pretty well. I did a similar journey last week (first one longer than 40 miles) which ended up at 45.5 mpg. Although I was in comfort rather than eco.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Chris, my charge box app shows the the voltage varying between 230 to 235 during charge.
As the bottom 10% is not useable that’s why only 90% of the 6.2 kWh can be recharged so this is the area where the degradation will be seen.
I’m probably missing something fundamental, think I’ll try and get a battery check done at my next service.

Is that app monitoring the charger itself? If so, that’s the supply voltage, not the car HV battery voltage you are seeing. The in-car charger converts the incoming AC to a DC voltage suitable for the battery pack.

There must be margins top & bottom we don’t get to use, we just don’t really know what they are.

 

[Mikep2]

Is that app monitoring the charger itself? If so, that’s the supply voltage, not the car HV battery voltage you are seeing. The in-car charger converts the incoming AC to a DC voltage suitable for the battery pack.

There must be margins top & bottom we don’t get to use, we just don’t really know what they are.

Yes you are right that’s the supply voltage, so is it the DC voltage that we need to know ?

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Yes you are right that’s the supply voltage, so is it the DC voltage that we need to know ?

It doesn't really matter what the battery voltage is as such, as we have an idea of how much energy we put in when charging (mains supply volts, current and time of charge). It's this charging energy that matters to us as users I think - it's the only thing we can actually measure ourselves, after all.

The things that might be nice to know would be what the upper and lower buffer amounts are, so we could have a better idea of the actual usable capacity of a nominally perfect battery pack. We don't even know if the quoted 6.3kWh is net or gross. I guess gross myself - the net usable (after taking off the buffers) I can see MB wanting to keep quiet about for a number of reasons. As time passes and they gather more data about battery usage and life, they may well want to increase those buffers to reduce capacity loss. Of course, if they do that, it would mean we'd immediately lose some usable capacity, but longer term, it would mean the battery lasts better overall.

The other things we don't know are charging efficiency and overheads, so even if we put 6kWh in to the car, we don't really know how much of that actually ends up as useful charge in the battery itself - basic charging efficiency is probably about 95% but there are other overheads as well like the battery thermal management that we have absolutely no idea about.

 

[CaptainChaos]

Yes but today i got the message that the battery was low, im guess thats the key battery, but after a bit of journey its okay again!!!

If it's the key battery the car shows a picture of the key on the dash.
Main dealers normally replace them at a service.

 

[Mikep2]

It doesn't really matter what the battery voltage is as such, as we have an idea of how much energy we put in when charging (mains supply volts, current and time of charge). It's this charging energy that matters to us as users I think - it's the only thing we can actually measure ourselves, after all.

The things that might be nice to know would be what the upper and lower buffer amounts are, so we could have a better idea of the actual usable capacity of a nominally perfect battery pack. We don't even know if the quoted 6.3kWh is net or gross. I guess gross myself - the net usable (after taking off the buffers) I can see MB wanting to keep quiet about for a number of reasons. As time passes and they gather more data about battery usage and life, they may well want to increase those buffers to reduce capacity loss. Of course, if they do that, it would mean we'd immediately lose some usable capacity, but longer term, it would mean the battery lasts better overall.

The other things we don't know are charging efficiency and overheads, so even if we put 6kWh in to the car, we don't really know how much of that actually ends up as useful charge in the battery itself - basic charging efficiency is probably about 95% but there are other overheads as well like the battery thermal management that we have absolutely no idea about.

The logic I am using is with the overall battery size quoted as 6.4 kWh with 6.2kwh being useable the bottom 10% has to be within the 6.2 leaving 5.58 available to charge.
Currently I can input 5.5kwh into my battery so if in 2 years time that is down to 4kwh (as some people are quoting) then this will indicate considerable degradation.
Still don’t understand how MB come up with 22ah used to calculate remaining battery capacity.
Anyway still love driving the car and I think a full EV would be boring after driving the C350e trying to manage the journeys to arrive home on 10% battery

 

[Deleted member 126969]

The logic I am using is with the overall battery size quoted as 6.4 kWh with 6.2kwh being useable the bottom 10% has to be within the 6.2 leaving 5.58 available to charge.
Currently I can input 5.5kwh into my battery so if in 2 years time that is down to 4kwh (as some people are quoting) then this will indicate considerable degradation.
Still don’t understand how MB come up with 22ah used to calculate remaining battery capacity.
Anyway still love driving the car and I think a full EV would be boring after driving the C350e trying to manage the journeys to arrive home on 10% battery

That’s the best way we have really, measure what goes in and keep records.

Re MB using the Ah rating, that works fine for them as they are looking directly at the battery pack itself, and it’s this Ah figure that drops as the battery degrades. The pack voltage will stay constant (unless it starts losing cells). The MB systems can access the BMS data directly so they can see what’s going on. We don’t have a direct way to monitor that value, so for us, just monitoring charge energy we put in is the best bet.

 

[WillofBill]

HI Guys.

I am about to push the button on a used 350 prem plus estate. Its in fantastic shape and i'm excited! I have had a beat up Touran 2.0 litre diesel for 8 years now and it’s basically very practical but boring. The 350e will be the first time I am able to spend some real money and get a car that fills me with happines! I have read through many of the 270 pages of this group which have been really informative. The car I'm looking at has done 48000. Has had 1 owner and comes with FSH. the guy wants just under 17k for it.

I guess I'm looking for a little reassurance as with most reviews it generally only takes a couple of not so good ones amongst loads of great ones to make me think twice. Can I expect 40 plus mpg and roughly 10-15 electric if charged? Thats fine to be honest as the car will mostly be used for short journeys with the occasional trip to devon or wales on camping trips - that said does anyone have boot dimensions from floor to roof, real width and depth?

Bristol has a diesel ban coming in 2021 so I’m hoping that in this car I have found the perfect solution for style, comfort, perfomance and maybe even fuel econonmy if driven correctly! I plan to hold on to it so i'm not really interested in resale value just good use for around 8 years. Any thoughts / sagely advice very welcome.
Thanks

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Even when brand new, and driven carefully, I think the best electric range I ever saw was 14 miles. After 3 years, I typically see 8 miles (or less) in winter and 11-12 in summer (main impact being the cabin heater).

mpg will depend a very great deal on how you drive it, length of journeys and how often you charge. On a run of say 100 miles with a full battery at the start, I usually see high 40s to low 50s. Given my unusual usage profile, I’ve seen over 1000 miles to a tank more than once.

As time passes, I’m becoming more and more paranoid about the HV battery life though. If I was buying one now...I wouldn’t!

 

[CaptainChaos]

HI Guys.

I am about to push the button on a used 350 prem plus estate. Its in fantastic shape and i'm excited! I have had a beat up Touran 2.0 litre diesel for 8 years now and it’s basically very practical but boring. The 350e will be the first time I am able to spend some real money and get a car that fills me with happines! I have read through many of the 270 pages of this group which have been really informative. The car I'm looking at has done 48000. Has had 1 owner and comes with FSH. the guy wants just under 17k for it.

I guess I'm looking for a little reassurance as with most reviews it generally only takes a couple of not so good ones amongst loads of great ones to make me think twice. Can I expect 40 plus mpg and roughly 10-15 electric if charged? Thats fine to be honest as the car will mostly be used for short journeys with the occasional trip to devon or wales on camping trips - that said does anyone have boot dimensions from floor to roof, real width and depth?

Bristol has a diesel ban coming in 2021 so I’m hoping that in this car I have found the perfect solution for style, comfort, perfomance and maybe even fuel econonmy if driven correctly! I plan to hold on to it so i'm not really interested in resale value just good use for around 8 years. Any thoughts / sagely advice very welcome.
Thanks

Sounds good. Welcome to the club!
You should see 45mpg and 8-12 miles electric if you regularly charge it. I can measure my boot if/when it stops raining. The battery does raise the boot floor slightly to the detriment of luggage capacity.

Things to check: it should come with a brick charger with three pin plug, a charging cable, locking wheel nut and puncture repair kit. Check the storage compartment at the left of the boot and also under the boot floor for these. Through the service menu on the trip computer you should be able to see when the next service is due. Services are based on mileage or 12 months, whichever comes first. Hopefully if it has been serviced at a main dealer there is a print out of the service history and it will have had the recalls done.

 

[Mikep2]

Definitely ask the owner what range he is seeing at 100% charge. Purchased mine November 19 and asked the main dealer to ensure it was 100% charged when I came to view. It was showing 14 then (4 degrees) and I have since always seen 13 or 14 (probably 10 to 11 miles in reality).
It would be ideal if owner could tell you how many KWh the car takes if he has a charging point. Mine takes on average 5.4kwh.
At that mileage a warranty would be essential as you can see from the troubles Sraj has posted about in December.
Just had a quick measure and floor to lowest point of opening 63cm, width is 106cm, back of the seats to rear is 90cm. Quite small really but depending on your needs.

 

[CaptainChaos]

Definitely ask the owner what range he is seeing at 100% charge.

That doesn't mean a great deal. The range shown is based on journeys previously travelled. It can't predict the future. Exactly the same as the range for your petrol.

I've had predicted ranges between 8 and 14 miles. Same car, same battery.

 

[Mikep2]

Take your point, but it is still a guide as to the condition of the hybrid battery, over around 60 charges mine has never varied from 12 to 14.
If when I viewed my car it was showing 8 or 10 miles range I would have had second thoughts and probably negotiated the price down. As it was seeng 14 gave me the assurance to purchase.