Formula 1, Moto GP, WSB, 2021 Season

[GeeJayW]

With their inconsistency this season, stewards have completely undermined their own position. It’s clear that Max views the authorities as a joke (“Max you’ve been given a penalty”, “Oh yeah, tell him I said hi!” - Brazil), demonstrating this with his total unwillingness to drive in accordance with the rules and lack of respect to his fellow competitors. This is reinforced by Christian Horner and Helmut Marko, to such an extent that makes for very uncomfortable viewing.

To those that say that Lewis should have just gone past Max yesterday, I say this:
a) Lewis had not been told that Max was instructed to let him past.
b) Max slowing down substantially without any obvious reason could have been a response to an incident or flag that Lewis had missed.
c) Max was jinking/wandering slightly left and right. Only a small amount, but enough to be unsettling to the driver behind. Watching it live, we were viewing from Lewis’ on-board and I commented to my other half, ‘what is Max up to?’. Lewis may well have thought that Max was trying to play him offside.
d) Deliberately brake-testing a following driver is a dirty move. Lewis was accused of doing this to Seb in Baku. Telemetry showed that he hadn‘t, but had it been the case I would have been equally critical.

So now we go into the final round of the most contested season for years, where there will be considerable ill feeling and mud slinging irrespective of who ends up as ‘champion’. Brilliant!!

All this because the Stewards have not simply done their job to adjudicate fairly and consistently throughout the season (or indeed through much of Max Vertappen’s career to date).

 

[Bellow]

Re inconsistent stewarding, a quote from MV yesterday:

''I find it interesting that I am the one who gets a penalty when both of us ran out of the white lines,” he added. “In Brazil it was fine but suddenly I get a penalty for it; you could see both of us didn’t make the corner.''

Whatever he got away with last is Verstappen's new code of conduct.

 

[Red C220]

With their inconsistency this season, stewards have completely undermined their own position. It’s clear that Max views the authorities as a joke (“Max you’ve been given a penalty”, “Oh yeah, tell him I said hi!” - Brazil), demonstrating this with his total unwillingness to drive in accordance with the rules and lack of respect to his fellow competitors. This is reinforced by Christian Horner and Helmut Marko, to such an extent that makes for very uncomfortable viewing.

To those that say that Lewis should have just gone past Max yesterday, I say this:
a) Lewis had not been told that Max was instructed to let him past.
b) Max slowing down substantially without any obvious reason could have been a response to an incident or flag that Lewis had missed.
c) Max was jinking/wandering slightly left and right. Only a small amount, but enough to be unsettling to the driver behind. Watching it live, we were viewing from Lewis’ on-board and I commented to my other half, ‘what is Max up to?’. Lewis may well have thought that Max was trying to play him offside.
d) Deliberately brake-testing a following driver is a dirty move. Lewis was accused of doing this to Seb in Baku. Telemetry showed that he hadn‘t, but had it been the case I would have been equally critical.

So now we go into the final round of the most contested season for years, where there will be considerable ill feeling and mud slinging irrespective of who ends up as ‘champion’. Brilliant!!

All this because the Stewards have not simply done their job to adjudicate fairly and consistently throughout the season (or indeed through much of Max Vertappen’s career to date).

Hamilton chose not to overtake, the defence of "I didn't know what was happening" is lame. The instinct of a driver at this level is to simply drive around the car in front. They do it when accidents occur, they do it with sudden engine failures of the car in front, it's instinct. Room was made, he simply didn't want to overtake at that point of the track.

The stewards acknowledged this and why he made that choice in their statement as follows:-

"Whilst accepting that the driver of Car 44 could have overtaken Car 33 when that car first slowed, we understand why he (and the driver of Car 33) did not wish to be the first to cross the DRS [line]. However, the sudden braking by the driver of Car 33 was determined by the Stewards to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision and hence the standard penalty of 10 seconds for this type of incident, is imposed."

So clearly LH knew what was going on, he didn't want to overtake MV where MV had made the manouvre possible due to the advantage he would then gain from DRS. In irritation of this MV has brake tested LH and was penalised as a result. They were both reported to stewards for breaches of the article mentioned above, sporting code.

So fundamentally the instruction to hand back a place has created the incident. In which case, if drivers are now going to hand back a place it's simply going to have be determined how and where this happens on each track before each race should the event occur. As naturally a driver instructed to hand back a place is going to do it where it inconveniences him least - in fact (as it stands) it has to be done within a pre determined number of corners once the instruction is given or the driver faces potential further penalties.

Whilst this is a Mercedes Forum and is therefore likely to be partisan to LH. I don't see this as completely one sided. This has been brewing and is a consequence of inconsisent application of rules over more than one season. As I've already said, it's now come to a head when the dominant team are actually having to compete with equal machinery and an equally/more aggressive driver.rather than just drive off into the sunset obeying team orders.

 

[Spider10]

Imo sir lewis (cry baby) Hamilton has met his match this season and has made good viewing yes MV has crossed the line ,BUT so has LH for instance, why has the race been red flaged there's nothing wrong with the barrier ,more then 10 car lenths on the restart ,bottas going stupidly slow to keep MV behind on the 1st safety car it was good to watch and next week will be aswell to think MV will on purpose take LH out is ludicrous they are racers and will race to the end

 

[Deleted member 55947]

As an aside the view of MV's car accelerating from LH cockpit camera after the shunt was astonishing

 

[Red C220]

Imo sir lewis (cry baby) Hamilton has met his match this season and has made good viewing yes MV has crossed the line ,BUT so has LH for instance, why has the race been red flaged there's nothing wrong with the barrier ,more then 10 car lenths on the restart ,bottas going stupidly slow to keep MV behind on the 1st safety car it was good to watch and next week will be aswell to think MV will on purpose take LH out is ludicrous they are racers and will race to the end

From what I heard during the race from the FIA radio, the restart does not include a formation lap apparently. So the lap where they drive around to form the restart grid is technically a lap of the race, not a formation lap. Who knew? None of teams seemed to know that nor the commentators. Maybe Mercedes did.

 

[GeeJayW]

Hamilton chose not to overtake, the defence of "I didn't know what was happening" is lame. The instinct of a driver at this level is to simply drive around the car in front. They do it when accidents occur, they do it with sudden engine failures of the car in front, it's instinct. Room was made, he simply didn't want to overtake at that point of the track.

The stewards acknowledged this and why he made that choice in their statement as follows:-

"Whilst accepting that the driver of Car 44 could have overtaken Car 33 when that car first slowed, we understand why he (and the driver of Car 33) did not wish to be the first to cross the DRS [line]. However, the sudden braking by the driver of Car 33 was determined by the Stewards to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision and hence the standard penalty of 10 seconds for this type of incident, is imposed."

So clearly LH knew what was going on, he didn't want to overtake MV where MV had made the manouvre possible due to the advantage he would then gain from DRS. In irritation of this MV has brake tested LH and was penalised as a result. They were both reported to stewards for breaches of the article mentioned above, sporting code.

So fundamentally the instruction to hand back a place has created the incident. In which case, if drivers are now going to hand back a place it's simply going to have be determined how and where this happens on each track before each race should the event occur. As naturally a driver instructed to hand back a place is going to do it where it inconveniences him least - in fact (as it stands) it has to be done within a pre determined number of corners once the instruction is given or the driver faces potential further penalties.

Whilst this is a Mercedes Forum and is therefore likely to be partisan to LH. I don't see this as completely one sided. This has been brewing and is a consequence of inconsisent application of rules over more than one season. As I've already said, it's now come to a head when the dominant team are actually having to compete with equal machinery and an equally/more aggressive driver.rather than just drive off into the sunset obeying team orders.

Well of course Lewis knows what he’s doing, he’s a seven-time world champion and won multiple championships in junior formulae. He also has as much right to try to take advantage of the DRS rules as Max. Simple facts are Max was weaving about and brake-tested Lewis. Had that been anyone else, but especially Lewis doing that to Max, the world and his wife would have been jumping up and down about it. Had the incident happened in an already decided championship, Max would have been disqualified. Nobody wants the championship to be decide by the Stewards.

FWIW, I’m not particularly a Lewis or Mercedes fan. There are several drivers and teams that I like and support. For example, I like Sergio and think Newey is a genius. In the end, I just want to see racing that is at a higher standard than touring (banger) cars.

 

[Bellow]

For sure the FIA are going to have to tighten up on 'giving back a place'. The old method of lifting off and moving to one side of the track is no longer a given.

 

[Bellow]

Imo sir lewis (cry baby) Hamilton has met his match this season and has made good viewing yes MV has crossed the line ,BUT so has LH for instance, why has the race been red flaged there's nothing wrong with the barrier ,more then 10 car lenths on the restart ,bottas going stupidly slow to keep MV behind on the 1st safety car it was good to watch and next week will be aswell to think MV will on purpose take LH out is ludicrous they are racers and will race to the end

Cry baby Lewis? Did you miss Versatppen whining over the car spacings at one of the restarts?
Verstappen and Horner are two cheeks of the same ar$e.

 

[Mactech]

An interesting perspective from one of my former Brazilian drivers. No British bias here!

The Briatore mindset
Even though I recognise that Max Verstappen is an amazing F1 racing car driver, deserving to become a world champion for his talent and performance; even though, together with many of my motor racing friends, we would wish to see him overcome Lewis Hamilton, I cannot close my eyes for what Max have been trying to do against the 7 times world champion, in order to secure the 2021 championship, and that is not good or even right.

When Michael Schumacher won his first world F1 title in 1994, Flavio Briatore was his team manager, and the circumstances of that victory was a shame that tainted the reputation of the 7 times world champion. Briatore was the one who influenced Schumacher with this advice:

“If you are going to be defeated, take your rival out of the race, no matter how”.

Later, Briatore was banned out of F1 for instigating another driver, the young Piquet Jr, to put his life at risk by simulating an accident to benefit his teammate, Fernando Alonso.

This kind of mindset and influence is wrong, evil, and reproachable.

Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, both are great drivers, and their competitiveness lends value for both as excellent racing car drivers; no wonder they came even in points to the last race of the 2021 season.

However, Max Verstappen's eventual triumph over one of the greatest racing car drivers of all times – Lewis Hamilton - must not come influenced by such mindset : The Briatore mindset.

 

[davymead]

Lots of unanswered questions for me after the race. F1 stewards arguing amongst themselves, that’s a new one, as is their ‘plea bargaining’ with teams on air by radio
A new circuit, woefully boring and potentially lethal, built at enormous expense by the Arabs as their latest showpiece. Exciting spectacle maybe, but perhaps could have been enhanced further by the drivers having the option of machine guns mounted for and aft, definitely an option dear Christian and Red Bull should consider, as their assault on the title and Mercedes was obviously ineffectual yesterday.
Still there’s always next weekend…. Maybe this time around someone will get hurt.
Driving like a lunatic and to win at all cost is clearly acceptable … Really

 

[Spider10]

Cry baby Lewis? Did you miss Versatppen whining over the car spacings at one of the restarts?
Verstappen and Horner are two cheeks of the same ar$e.

As I mentioned before the spacing was over the top (loose temperature tyre's and brakes) on the restart.
If you watch this season you Will notice everytime its not going LH,s way he moans tbh the season has been spoilt (in fact F1 as a whole) by to many rules ,racing is racing ! Not anymore

 

[GeeJayW]

As I mentioned before the spacing was over the top (loose temperature tyre's and brakes) on the restart.
If you watch this season you Will notice everytime its not going LH,s way he moans tbh the season has been spoilt (in fact F1 as a whole) by to many rules ,racing is racing ! Not anymore

The season has been ruined by over aggressive driving and constant mud slinging in particular by a certain team principle and his consultant, compounded by weak and inconsistent decision making by the authorities. All the drivers moan, you only get to hear comments from those that are deemed ‘interesting’. You clearly don’t like Hamilton, but at least be objective in your comments.

 

[Spider10]

Im actually a fan of the sport not any driver in particular how ever 90% of this thread has been against MV and his team ,yes mud sligging is not nice but they all do it ,Im not a LH fan but not because of his driving he is a very good driver of the time now he has his match with MV can't wait till next season I very much doubt that Russell will lie down and let him have all the glory

 

[GeeJayW]

…however 90% of this thread has been against MV and his team,…

And why do you think that is happening? Could it simply be that Max’s driving standards have often been unfair and certainly below the standards expected in F1 or that his team have continuously made unfounded allegations and slurs about their competition or undermining the officials etc to anyone that will listen? Or, are the comments just unfairly biased against Max and RBR?

 

[Dryce]

Hamilton chose not to overtake, the defence of "I didn't know what was happening" is lame. The instinct of a driver at this level is to simply drive around the car in front. They do it when accidents occur, they do it with sudden engine failures of the car in front, it's instinct. Room was made, he simply didn't want to overtake at that point of the track.

I think the instinct of a *thinking* driver faced with MV doing somthing unexpected and looking a bit imprecise on track is to be circumspect.

When MV slowed down I was rather reminded of the lead up to Damon Hill's attempted pass on a damaged Michael Schimacher for the WDC - and I suspect that Sir LH is assuming that any time he gets close to MV on the track will involve contact.

 

[Dryce]

to think MV will on purpose take LH out is ludicrous they are racers and will race to the end

To think MV will take out LH is becoming entirely logical given his behaviour on track.

So the two most likely outcomes for the WDC next week are (a) MV makes an over aggressive lunge on LH from behind and collides or forces him off track or (b) if LH tries to overtake then MV will attempt to barge him off.

He has repeatedly demonstrated tha he will barge other cars off track or weave in front of them when there is the likelihood that he will be fairly passed. And on other situations he will not give ground.

He made a mistake in qualifying that then led to him losing pole position - and worse - possibly ending up with a gearbox change.

He walked off the podium on Sunday. I think that told its own story. I think we're seeing MV under tremendous pressure. The WDC means substantially more to him this year than it does to his opponent.

 

[Dryce]

Im actually a fan of the sport not any driver in particular how ever 90% of this thread has been against MV and his team

Well if you're a fan of the sport then MV's driving should be of some concern to you.

I'm disappointed in his behaviour. He's capable of being brilliant and sublime on track. But IMO his primary means of defence and attack in close racing against LH has degraded to just running him off the track.

 

[Spider10]

I disagree the WDC means the same to both driver's or we wouldn't be having this conversation its not a case of I've won 7 already so it doesn't matter alot is at stake if RB was even considering taking lewis out dont you think 1 of the lesser driver's would do it? Its all hype and its made a great end to the championship lets hope its clean and a good race on all partys

 

[Spider10]

Well if you're a fan of the sport then MV's driving should be of some concern to you.

I'm disappointed in his behaviour. He's capable of being brilliant and sublime on track. But IMO his primary means of defence and attack in close racing against LH has degraded to just running him off the track.

MV driving is on par with past World champions there's plenty to choose from who were deamed dangerous (I agree he is all out what ever the out come) Schumacher included as a driver your main aim is to win, if the car slows infront of you you pass it not wait to be told too ,if tracks had gravel pits still instead of run of areas then this championship would be over already!