• The Forums are now open to new registrations, adverts are also being de-tuned.

Mercedes W114 250 Coupe - help!

What I found interesting in that thread link I posted was the following.

If it is a Bosch 0 208 140 516 run at 100Hz, then the latest Tunserstudio view of test mode should let you verify visually that the valve is closed at about 40% duty and wide open at 80% duty. Numbers below 40% duty will start to open the valve again.

The thing to glean from that is possibly that the "valve closed" signal is not zero voltage as you might assume but 40% duty cycle ----- 80% representing fully open as you might expect. Further reduction on voltage /current starts to open the valve again alledgedly as a "fail safe" as in the event of complete valve supply voltage failure the valve will remain partially open to facilitate starting???
 
Last edited:
Interesting Graeme. This morning I found the valve open at 0% and closed at 100%. I'll have a gander at the test mode you mentioned. I am pleased that it works but there is much fiddling to be done to establish all the inflexion points. This is the great thing about having the car at home as I can experiment away to my hearts content.
 
Great stuff. I mapped a line between 0% and 100% duty cycle on the idle warmup and the revs diminished as the car warmed up as it climbed towards 100%. So at 100% duty cycle it was revving at about 1000rpm, reducing this and the revs climbed consistently to about 1500 at 0%. So even allowing for fuelling and the throttle adjustment screw (the next to be considered as I think an idle at about 7-800 would be more sensible) there is a really linear idling control available. That makes me very happy!
 
Last edited:
Right --- so open at 0% duty cycle and fully closed at 100% the opposite of what I said :doh: presumably as a function of coil polarity---- again in this case voltage failure would again default to open which makes sense. :thumb:
Presumably this gradual movement of the valve shutting can mapped against engine coolant temperature. I guess one problem is setting a nominal ambient coolant/engine temperature as zero on that scale and at what coolant/engine temperature the valve is fully closed. Any temperature below that zero [ 0%] would mean the valve was fully open of course and anything above the 100% normal operating temperature [closed] would again mean no change. Hopefully a smooth idle adjustment of around 700-800 rpm can be achieved with the fixed fine idle bypass valve without to much fiddling with fuel air ratio when the engine is warmed up.
 
Correct Graeme - in fact there is a closed loop idle valve setting (next to be explored) where you control for revs at particular temperatures and the ECU then instructs the IACV accordingly.
 
This is so much fun. Got the idle to about 800, but it's cycling at that level, so a bit more work to be done. I was finding the car difficult to start when warm, throttling did not help. Scratches head then remembers it's the priming and cranking injector pulse enrichment that does that, re-maps the baseline and no issue.

I wasn't sold on all the DIY soldering bits of Megasquirt and struggled with some of it, but the ability to spend a productive 20 minutes twice a day with the engine cold and learn about the engine characteristics, priceless. For the cost of about a litre of fuel, the knowledge gained is phenomenal. It will still need the rolling road for acceleration and full load mapping, but hopefully it will go there with all the starting and idling sorted.
 
Last edited:
A digression on the subject of tuning and mappers. Almost at the outset of this process I visited a local rolling road (by coincidence they had set up the carbs on my little Abarth engined Fiat 127 for the previous owner), taking my Citroen SM as a pretext, but in order to get some information on their capabilities and interest in helping. That SM was equipped with a Megasquirt ECU.

The owner had recently taken it over from his father who had not long before died, and he was clear of his limitations. He said he had no ability to map Megasquirt as it required a greater knowledge of the set up, and strongly recommended Omex ECUs as Omex gave a lot of technical support. He also cited an example of a car that had not been mapped before, including full ignition mapping, which had taken 3 days on the rolling road with the full support of Omex in the process.

The problem with Omex then as now is that they do two engine ECUs, one for 4 cylinders and one for up to 12, the latter being capable of being programmed for bi-turbo installations etc. As mine is a 6 I really could see no point in paying £1200 or thereabouts for a chip (no loom) whereas the MS2 I bought came with a full loom for my set up and was complete for just over £400. The bit about 3 days of mapping even with support also put me off. The bill for the rolling road could have run into mid teens.

So, fast forward to about 6 weeks ago when I started ringing round rolling roads to get the car booked in. As always I try to be give as much information as possible to aid the person taking the booking. The first one, very local to me, had a professional website stating their ability to set up and map Megasquirt on their rolling road. I called them and even before I'd got out the words Mercedes W114, he stopped me and said they'd lost the lease on the building with the rolling road 3 years ago so could no longer map things. (an example of poor website management but that's bye the bye.) He suggested the guy in Slough I'd seen with the SM.

I then tried one who is featured on the Megasquirt website, they had no number or address and they replied to the email 14 days later. Too late and booked up 'til January anyway.

The penultimate one was local to Bicester and even before I got the words Megasquirt out, I got considerable push back - "you really should have chosen something better, there is little support for it, requires us to spend a lot of time setting it all up etc, really not a good choice, Omex would have been so much better - so you'd like us to help though?" I very politely suggested that actually not really, the result in my SM was spectacular, and I didn't want someone unenthusiastic and not knowledgeable sorting it out.

So in the end I booked Northampton Motorsports who seemed fine with the choice and did an acceptable job on the car. Discussing MS vs Omex with the owner, he did point out that many of the cars that come to them with MS chips are enthusiast built with home soldered chips and so many things to sort that it was a frustrating time for the mapper and for the customer. Also that many different components such as sensors and idle valves came from all over, may not be new or even necessarily working, and getting them all set up is very time consuming. I bought that as a perfectly sound argument, which is why I bought it as a complete package and had all my implementation done by an experienced technician.

The point of this digression, if I have one, is that there is more to mapping than simply an ECU, you need a properly set up car first, but that a mapper may not be able to help you with the time consuming parts of the ECU set up because they lack the specific knowledge of the programming. My Citroen SM programming is superb because the guy doing it, Nard at Renard NL has been experimenting on his SM for several years, has made full use of the open source nature of the MS community to help with ignition timing in particular (irregular beat V6 remember) and so it is really good. Getting all that right using a commercial mapper would be very time consuming and expensive.

So in short, what I am trying to do is use my poor tired and non-technical brain to do much of the work myself, and only go at a pace I can cope with. I am inordinately pleased with my work so far, and am finding it fascinating, but hubris before nemesis. What I want at the end of the winter is a car that is set up properly for all the use I am going to give it and hope in my small way to add a little to the sum of human knowledge of doing it on an M114. This may all go horribly wrong, but doing it all via a tuner would cheat me of so much learning and pleasure, and the money side would hurt too...

Here endeth the digression.
 
Incidentally, where has Bellow got to? I've really missed your input if you do read this!

Thanks to all those, especially the absolutely sterling Grober, who continue to follow this and contribute!
 
All those done Graeme - I'm currently running it as open, but when I am happy with the quality of the idle at all temperatures and the effective stable low rev idle I'll move to attempting a closed loop.

The plan also is I'll do a screen pic of the important settings to show what I've done. As I'm operating the mapping from a separate Windows laptop and posting here from a Macbook I'll probably screw up that bit completely! Doing a video requires more hands than I possess, but if anyone is keen to come over I'll record some.
 
Did the PWM valve require any hardware mods for increased current demand Charles? described in this little video. Don't want to muddy the waters you understand so feel free to ignore if you don't think its relevant. :dk:
[YOUTUBE]U42Z5Bzu_UY[/YOUTUBE]
 
Yes - but all done by ExtraEfi as I knew what I wanted before speccing the ECU.

This is the real advantage of having a car done with MS before albeit without my involvement.
 
I am new to this forum and recently acquired a W114, but I am a bit confused as my has the more modern steering wheel and 'ribbed' tail lights. I thought the W115s where newer and came with the rear lights ribbed with a more modern steering wheel. The chassis plate on mine says its a W114. See image for illustration.
 
A digression on the subject of tuning and mappers. Almost at the outset of this process I visited a local rolling road (by coincidence they had set up the carbs on my little Abarth engined Fiat 127 for the previous owner), taking my Citroen SM as a pretext, but in order to get some information on their capabilities and interest in helping. That SM was equipped with a Megasquirt ECU.

The owner had recently taken it over from his father who had not long before died, and he was clear of his limitations. He said he had no ability to map Megasquirt as it required a greater knowledge of the set up, and strongly recommended Omex ECUs as Omex gave a lot of technical support. He also cited an example of a car that had not been mapped before, including full ignition mapping, which had taken 3 days on the rolling road with the full support of Omex in the process.

The problem with Omex then as now is that they do two engine ECUs, one for 4 cylinders and one for up to 12, the latter being capable of being programmed for bi-turbo installations etc. As mine is a 6 I really could see no point in paying £1200 or thereabouts for a chip (no loom) whereas the MS2 I bought came with a full loom for my set up and was complete for just over £400. The bit about 3 days of mapping even with support also put me off. The bill for the rolling road could have run into mid teens.

So, fast forward to about 6 weeks ago when I started ringing round rolling roads to get the car booked in. As always I try to be give as much information as possible to aid the person taking the booking. The first one, very local to me, had a professional website stating their ability to set up and map Megasquirt on their rolling road. I called them and even before I'd got out the words Mercedes W114, he stopped me and said they'd lost the lease on the building with the rolling road 3 years ago so could no longer map things. (an example of poor website management but that's bye the bye.) He suggested the guy in Slough I'd seen with the SM.

I then tried one who is featured on the Megasquirt website, they had no number or address and they replied to the email 14 days later. Too late and booked up 'til January anyway.

The penultimate one was local to Bicester and even before I got the words Megasquirt out, I got considerable push back - "you really should have chosen something better, there is little support for it, requires us to spend a lot of time setting it all up etc, really not a good choice, Omex would have been so much better - so you'd like us to help though?" I very politely suggested that actually not really, the result in my SM was spectacular, and I didn't want someone unenthusiastic and not knowledgeable sorting it out.

So in the end I booked Northampton Motorsports who seemed fine with the choice and did an acceptable job on the car. Discussing MS vs Omex with the owner, he did point out that many of the cars that come to them with MS chips are enthusiast built with home soldered chips and so many things to sort that it was a frustrating time for the mapper and for the customer. Also that many different components such as sensors and idle valves came from all over, may not be new or even necessarily working, and getting them all set up is very time consuming. I bought that as a perfectly sound argument, which is why I bought it as a complete package and had all my implementation done by an experienced technician.

The point of this digression, if I have one, is that there is more to mapping than simply an ECU, you need a properly set up car first, but that a mapper may not be able to help you with the time consuming parts of the ECU set up because they lack the specific knowledge of the programming. My Citroen SM programming is superb because the guy doing it, Nard at Renard NL has been experimenting on his SM for several years, has made full use of the open source nature of the MS community to help with ignition timing in particular (irregular beat V6 remember) and so it is really good. Getting all that right using a commercial mapper would be very time consuming and expensive.

So in short, what I am trying to do is use my poor tired and non-technical brain to do much of the work myself, and only go at a pace I can cope with. I am inordinately pleased with my work so far, and am finding it fascinating, but hubris before nemesis. What I want at the end of the winter is a car that is set up properly for all the use I am going to give it and hope in my small way to add a little to the sum of human knowledge of doing it on an M114. This may all go horribly wrong, but doing it all via a tuner would cheat me of so much learning and pleasure, and the money side would hurt too...

Here endeth the digression.

Have you go an AFR gauge fitted?
 
I am new to this forum and recently acquired a W114, but I am a bit confused as my has the more modern steering wheel and 'ribbed' tail lights. I thought the W115s where newer and came with the rear lights ribbed with a more modern steering wheel. The chassis plate on mine says its a W114. See image for illustration.

The W114 and W115 are basically the same car mechanically. The W114 is the two door coupe version the W115 the 4 door saloon. They were made at the same time to all intents and purposes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W114

Unfortunately your picture did not appear.

W115
1920px-1975_MB_280_US_front.jpg


W114
Mercedes-Benz_250_C.jpg
 
Last edited:
I am new to this forum and recently acquired a W114, but I am a bit confused as my has the more modern steering wheel and 'ribbed' tail lights. I thought the W115s where newer and came with the rear lights ribbed with a more modern steering wheel. The chassis plate on mine says its a W114. See image for illustration.

Most probably you have a series 2 car - what year is yours? The series 2 had bigger mirror housings mounted into the front window, ribbed lights and the more modern steering wheel (safety). It is possible someone has updated the car as well. W114s only came with six cylinder engines and had a coupe version, W115s 4s and 5s and only saloons but both are entirely contemporaneous.
 
The W114 is the two door coupe version the W115 the 4 door saloon.

The W114 is a saloon too but the W115 was never made as a coupe. The over-riding difference is not trim or body shape but cylinders in the engines - 6s for the W114, 4s & 5s for the W115.
 
Officially happy with the starting and idling from 5deg C. I can't really get lower than that until the air temperature gets there, nor can I replicate summer starting.

I have been adjusting the warmup enhancement until idle revs come close to stalling, then gently adjusting them upwards in live time until idling is completely smooth. This is about 900 rpm, and then testing stalling by putting it into first and pulling away without any use of the throttle (same throughout - no throttle starting). This is easy, but reversing into the garage requires the car to go up out of a small dip and up a small slope to the garage, to my mind if idling can pull the car back without stalling or use of throttle it is good enough. In gear under load the idle drops to about 800 which is fine.

Next job, set up the close loop idle (and find a USB stick for screen capture transfer).
 
Had another fiddle (or should I say in Megasquirt parlance FIDLE?), this time shutting the throttle adjustment screw completely, so the only source of extra air is from the ICV. After a lot of messing around on the computer, I got the smooth idle down to 800 rpm without changing the fuelling at all, and at that it will still creep in and out of the garage. 750 is doable but won't accept any real load, so I now have the base level rpm for the closed loop calculations.

Now off to get a USB stick or two. Can't find any at home at all.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom