Problem with dealer I recently purchased SL500 from

[Mudster]

I don't know for certain but I suspect that at a car auction , such as Coy's , or whoever , you buy the car from ( and pay ) the auctioneer ; on the other hand , with eBay you buy the car from ( and pay directly ) the seller ( who then pays a fee to eBay ) .

I suspect that makes all the difference .

I don't know what the difference is either, and I'd like a legal definition of this, particualrly the difference between eBay auctions and a traditional auction.

 

[jaymanek]

What about the paintwork though Jay?

Surely any work here should have been negotiated before taking delivery of the car, and was accepted by Simal within the deal.....

Would there be any comeback to the dealer on this?

Yes of course the cosmetics will not be considered in court... im only talking about electricals and mechanicals.

 

[bpsorrel]

I don't know what the difference is either, and I'd like a legal definition of this, particualrly the difference between eBay auctions and a traditional auction.

This may help.. (an extract from an Ebay forum thread about this very subject)

"You have NO RIGHTS whatsoever at a venue which is deemed to be a 'trade' type auction if you buy a vehicle 'as seen'

It is EXACTLY that - 'as seen'

If it breaks into 2000 pieces on the eway home, guess what?

You own every one of those 2000 pieces.

Ebay is different. Buyers DO have rights, all the timne bearing in mind the price paid and the description given by the seller. If I sell a car as 'Superb' and it isn't the buyer has rights. If I sell a car as 'has a misfire, failed MOT, spares or repair' and it IS the buyer has no rights.

Ebay is a venue for buyers and sellers to meet, NOT a real auction or so Ebay claim.

Their part in the process is deemed to be the same as a card in a newsagents window or an ad in Auto Trader."

 

[Mudster]

Their part in the process is deemed to be the same as a card in a newsagents window or an ad in Auto Trader."

The only issue with this being that eBay will only enforce the "rights" if you paid via Paypal. These are not legal "rights" under consumer rights but eBay terms and conditions which is a slightly different thing.

 

[bpsorrel]

Elsewhere in ther forum it was mentioned that eBay car sales ARE covered by the Sale of Goods act, something else different to traditional car auctions...

 

[jaymanek]

they certainly are covered if the seller is a dealer.

 

[Mudster]

I'm interested to see how this develops.

 

[bpsorrel]

Me too..

 

[NormanC]

My problem with this whole thread is that, as far as I can see, all the faults listed would have been found during an inspection and the buyer apparently inspected the car on two occasions. Unless I am mistaken, none of them appear to be of the "crankshaft broken" or "gearbox seized" variety that could develop later.

Buying anything on E-Bay needs a lot of care and consideration, even more so when you are talking thousands of pounds. Making sure that all the electrics work, including air con is absolutely elementary. If you're not willing to accept the faults you find you don't buy!!

I feel there is some element here of "I've found an amazing bargain that I won't let go" and an emotional attachment to the concept of the car totally outweighed a prudent approach of "what am I getting for my thousands of pounds".

Can I ask why the car was bought with the obvious faults and not just walked away from?

 

[jonnyboy]

My problem with this whole thread is that, as far as I can see, all the faults listed would have been found during an inspection and the buyer apparently inspected the car on two occasions. Unless I am mistaken, none of them appear to be of the "crankshaft broken" or "gearbox seized" variety that you wouldn't expect to find.

Buying anything on E-Bay needs a lot of care and consideration, even more so when you are talking thousands of pounds. Making sure that all the electrics work, including air con is absolutely elementary. If you're not willing to accept the faults you find you don't buy!!

I feel there is some element here of "I've found an amazing bargain that I won't let go" and an emotional attachment to the concept of the car totally outweighed a prudent approach of "what am I getting for my thousands of pounds".

Can I ask why the car was bought with the obvious faults and not just walked away from?

I think there may be 9,700 reasons........

 

[rees_A]

You got a cheap car, it was cheap because you had no guarantees or warranty to cover you for any subsequent faults. If you have had the car for a month and it developed the faults in your ownership, which is what I would argue, why should the seller be responsible when he offered no warranty. I've bought cars in the past, as I am sure everyone else has, that have needed some work to get them back to 'as new'. If you choose to get the car back to 'as new' it will be worth more than you paid for it....(So, you paid 10k, gotta spend maybe 3k to get it to a 12-13k car, doesn't sound like a bad deal to me)

Cars do sometimes go wrong, they cost a lot to get fixed, you could have paid 13k and had a gearbox failure after the warranty expires, the car you bought may run perfectly once the niggles are sorted...

As for the rust etc. Most MB's have rust and if they don't they will soon.....

 

[N7OGP]

was it an auction or buy it now?

 

[vincenz]

was it an auction or buy it now?

auction, see previous posts

 

[Sonny Burnett]

I think there may be 9,700 reasons........

lol +1

 

[AnilS]

Interesting thread.

Firstly, may I say thats a nice looking car at an competitive price.

Secondly, and I'm sure there are some that might agree, but when I go to look at a potential car purchase, I have a general checklist (common stuff to check on all cars). When I bought my SL320 recently, I added to this checklist, obvious items tailored to the SL, like making sure the roof works, any roof tears, does the A/C blow cold and does the heater work. The last checks mentioned are essential for a convertible and I cribed these from reading such forums and buyers guide.

The rust/laquer issues seem premature but it maybe an uncared for example.

IMHO, you should have done your homework and gone in with your eyes wide open, and preferably taken a friend with you, who would not be wearing "rose tinted" spectacles. I don't mean that in a horrible way, but the excitement when looking at the car of your dreams, can cloud your judgement.

 

[aka$h]

Thanks you all for your responses.

The point of the thread was to understand my rights as a consumer.

I contacted the citizen's advice bureau yesterday and have been informed unless the vehicle has been bought at a physical auction my rights as a consumer stand when buying from a car dealer. So Jay was correct.

As I can prove the seller is a trader and I have a receipt from their trading name, I have upto 6 months to take up any issues that develop with the car. The only time this wouldnt apply is to a car that is sub £1k where its expected the car will need repairs, and its expected of a car that value.

I have the car booked in for an MOT, and will be putting the list of items in writing. Allowing 7 days for the seller to respond. Failing that I will issue legal proceedings. Not for bodywork or cosmetic issues but for the items not functioning correctly, and any issues that arise from an MOT.

Another key point, you can insist the car is repaired, it is only be buyer that has the right to demand a refund. The seller cannot impose a refund, except if the vehicle is beyond economical repair.

 

[Mudster]

So now you've determined what your rights are (which is very interesting).

You now have to prove the vehicle was fundamentally not as described. This is where it gets difficult if the dealer isn't interested in playing ball.

I still don't think this is as easy as issuing a small claims writ and getting paid. I've defended a couple of these in the last two years and a well constructed answer to the claim will keep this running to a point where a court appearance is required, (that's usually about 12 months from the initial claim). It can then come down to how willing you are to appear and how good at that you are.

Let us know how this proceeds.

I think from a legal point of view the fact you viewed twice before payment and the issues were clearly present when you viewed, yet you still chose to buy has compromised your claim severely.

Remember your rights give you a course of action of legal redress for something being not as described (it's not an automatic right to bring a car up to the condition you think it should be in), I am not entirely convinced this is the case that you will be successful because of your own actions.

"Not as described" - this is the grey area, it needs to be something fundamental, lets take the air conditioning - firstly the advert doesn't state the car has air condition.....tough to consider that "not as described".

The dealer discounted the seat which cost which you agreed.


Let us know what occurs.

 

[Mudster]

What you need to demonstrate is the description below was misleading or fundamentally misleading in not describing the condition of the car.

Here is the advert for the vehicle according to the eBay sale you won:-

For Sale is a VERY RARE CAR! MERCEDES BENZ SL 500 SILVER ARROW..
only 1400 was ever made worldwide.
This will probably become very collectable...
Its had 3 owners from new with Full mercedes service history apart from the last service which is a specialist. Its taxed and mot'ed ready for the sunshine..
As a final good-bye to the R129 Series body style in 2002, Mercedes offered a very limited production model known as the Silver Arrow. Approximately 1,400 of these gorgeous vehicles were produced making them certain collectibles for the future!
These distinct cars came beautifully equipped with unique Silver Arrow Ultra Metallic paint, special two-tone Nappa leather interior, black soft top, 18" two-piece high-polished 6-spoke wheels, polished aluminum interior & exterior trim, black birds eye maple trim, xenon headlamps, 6-speaker Bose Accoustimass sound system with 6-disc CD changer, illuminated door sills, and cross drilled front and rear disc brakes! Plus hard top.
Condition inside, Overall good, seats are showing some signs of wear as too is the top of the steering wheel, both could easily be smart repaired..
Condition outside, Pretty good in keeping with its age and miles etc, Hard top good, and the Canvas hood is perfect, the wheels are marked on the polished edges.
She drives very well and still turns heads..
Please feel free to ask any questions as you bid to buy!!!
On sale with no reserve IT WILL SELL TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER, the only other Silver Arrows i can find for sale are mega money so grab a bargain..
I will add lots more photos on Monday.
Good Luck

 

[iscaboy]

I still don't think this is as easy as issuing a small claims writ and getting paid.

Yes, playing devils advocate, if the dealer has half a brain he can see you in small claims one year down the line and win.

On points terms your case is weak to the point of being non-existent.

1. You are an expert in these cars, more so than the dealer.
2. You inspected the car, TWICE.
3. None of your complaints are actually supported by the advert in question, which was very brief.
4. None of your complaints are hard to diagnose or detect, they are all very much in your face even to someone who has never opened a bonnet in their life.
5. The car was very cheap for what it was.
6. The car only had a very short MOT.
7. The car is basically as advertised.
8. The one complaint you had, the dealer discounted a very reasonable £200 for.

the DJ is likely to throw your claim out and award costs against you.

 

[iscaboy]

What you need to demonstrate is the description below was misleading or fundamentally misleading in not describing the condition of the car.

Here is the advert for the vehicle according to the eBay sale you won:-

For Sale is a VERY RARE CAR! MERCEDES BENZ SL 500 SILVER ARROW..
only 1400 was ever made worldwide.
This will probably become very collectable...
Its had 3 owners from new with Full mercedes service history apart from the last service which is a specialist. Its taxed and mot'ed ready for the sunshine..
As a final good-bye to the R129 Series body style in 2002, Mercedes offered a very limited production model known as the Silver Arrow. Approximately 1,400 of these gorgeous vehicles were produced making them certain collectibles for the future!
These distinct cars came beautifully equipped with unique Silver Arrow Ultra Metallic paint, special two-tone Nappa leather interior, black soft top, 18" two-piece high-polished 6-spoke wheels, polished aluminum interior & exterior trim, black birds eye maple trim, xenon headlamps, 6-speaker Bose Accoustimass sound system with 6-disc CD changer, illuminated door sills, and cross drilled front and rear disc brakes! Plus hard top.
Condition inside, Overall good, seats are showing some signs of wear as too is the top of the steering wheel, both could easily be smart repaired..
Condition outside, Pretty good in keeping with its age and miles etc, Hard top good, and the Canvas hood is perfect, the wheels are marked on the polished edges.
She drives very well and still turns heads..
Please feel free to ask any questions as you bid to buy!!!
On sale with no reserve IT WILL SELL TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER, the only other Silver Arrows i can find for sale are mega money so grab a bargain..
I will add lots more photos on Monday.
Good Luck

The text in red IS NOT A DESCRIPTION OF THE ACTUAL CAR FOR SALE.

It is a description of the car as sold new by MB

a DJ in a small claims court will not make ANY allowances for any inability to read English.