Problem with dealer I recently purchased SL500 from

[jaymanek]

guys... the law is very clear.. if the seller is a car dealer and it has been sold through the business then 6 months is the minimum warranty period for a car of this age, mileage and price..... ebay, pistonheads, auto trader.. it doesnt matter.. writing sold as seen means absolutely nothing. He is a business seller of vehicles.

Aka$h - fill in the small claims papers.

 

[jonnyboy]

Look, take it from someone who knows.

1/ redacted - ok the vendor is a dealer

2/ you paid beer money for a champagne product.

3/ Your own presence here will brand you in Court as an expert in MB

Your only recourse is the one open to all people, trade sales or private, which is that a vehicle must be "roadworthy", which does not mean it must pass an MOT, it means it must not be a danger to other road users, and you've been complaining about peripheral stuff.

You forked out £10k on a dog, get over it, clean the car up, MOT it, write a GOOD advert (but do not lie) and stick it back on ebay asap.

This (last car I sold) is a GOOD advert, if it had been like the advert for your merc it would have gotten maybe 25% of the selling price it did.

YOU made a judgement call, YOU are not a novice, YOU got burnt, this happens, now ask yourself if you are going to continue to spend hundreds of pounds on peripherals on a car that has an almost expired MOT, or are you going to get shot and get your money back and buy a car you will be happy with?

This is what I really don't understand about this thread to be honest.

It's not like you bought the car with no MB knowledge or "blind" as you did view it.

 

[aka$h]

This is what I really don't understand about this thread to be honest.

It's not like you bought the car with no MB knowledge or "blind" as you did view it.

I paid £10k for a car, and I didnt expect it to be mint, thats not to say that the seller had described it the way it should have been. No mention of the broken front bumper rusty wings or badly painted wings, with lacquer peeling. Lacquer is also peeling on the rear quater. That bodywork in inself is nearing £2000.

So yes, I budgeted a spend on the bodywork, but to then be hit by a parts bill of £1000 and thats without any labour. Seems a bit much, buy a car for £10k and spend over £3k to put it right. If he had told me all of the above, it would have been my choice to go ahead or not.

 

[aka$h]

guys... the law is very clear.. if the seller is a car dealer and it has been sold through the business then 6 months is the minimum warranty period for a car of this age, mileage and price..... ebay, pistonheads, auto trader.. it doesnt matter.. writing sold as seen means absolutely nothing. He is a business seller of vehicles.

Aka$h - fill in the small claims papers.

Well Im on hold to citizen's advice, and assuming they say the same, Ill go down that route. Im sure a question like this is something you must know the answer to, being in the business you are.

 

[iscaboy]

guys... the law is very clear.. if the seller is a car dealer and it has been sold through the business then 6 months is the minimum warranty period for a car of this age, mileage and price..... ebay, pistonheads, auto trader.. it doesnt matter.. writing sold as seen means absolutely nothing. He is a business seller of vehicles.

Aka$h - fill in the small claims papers.

agreed, but the car drives, "warranty" does not mean "factory new" and "absolutely everything works" PARTICULARLY AFTER TWO INSPECTIONS, and MOST PARTICULARLY after the vendor has already given a cash discount for a fault that was found.

 

[Sp!ke]

The way I see it is that you have a receipt from a dealer.

Unless the receipt specifies that the car was sold for spares or repair then you have an expectation that the goods be of merchantable quality and fit for use.

Assuming the car wasnt sold under these conditions then you should have a strong case for the dealer to rectify the faults. If you repair them yourself however without giving him the opportunity to resolve matters first, I suspect you'll have to swallow that cost as the dealer needs to be given the opportunity to resolve matters first.

 

[SL300-24]

I would try and negotiate with him first. Forget the seat as he gave you £200 to sort that which you agreed to.
Re the air-con....I would suggest to him that as a car dealer you have some redress via the courts and before you take that route you are offering him the chance to put the air-con right.
£10k is still a fair bit of money and you should expect it to work.
The paintwork faults were there when you inspected the car and you must have accepted these as is.
Politeness and negotiation is the key first of all, most car dealers will try to leave the customer happy, but will give back as least as possible. If you say that you will cover all the other faults, if he sorts the air-con you may get a result.
Good luck....

 

[jaymanek]

some of the faults here arent niggles... and whether they were picked up prior to exchange of money or not is irrelevant... the dealer is responsible for sorting these things out.

 

[219]

I would try and negotiate with him first. Forget the seat as he gave you £200 to sort that which you agreed to.
Re the air-con....I would suggest to him that as a car dealer you have some redress via the courts and before you take that route you are offering him the chance to put the air-con right.
£10k is still a fair bit of money and you should expect it to work.
The paintwork faults were there when you inspected the car and you must have accepted these as is.
Politeness and negotiation is the key first of all, most car dealers will try to leave the customer happy, but will give back as least as possible. If you say that you will cover all the other faults, if he sorts the air-con you may get a result.
Good luck....

Perhaps the most sensible post so far .

 

[jonnyboy]

I paid £10k for a car, and I didnt expect it to be mint, thats not to say that the seller had described it the way it should have been. No mention of the broken front bumper rusty wings or badly painted wings, with lacquer peeling. Lacquer is also peeling on the rear quater. That bodywork in inself is nearing £2000.

So yes, I budgeted a spend on the bodywork, but to then be hit by a parts bill of £1000 and thats without any labour. Seems a bit much, buy a car for £10k and spend over £3k to put it right. If he had told me all of the above, it would have been my choice to go ahead or not.

I understand where you are coming from Aka$h, but you inspected the car. You simply cannot bring into this discussion all the issues you were already aware of.

No inspection + misdescription = go after him.
Inspection and brief but not misdescribed = good luck

 

[corned]

This is a very interesting thread, for quite a few reasons.

I was backing the valid private sale side of the argument - particularly with this in mind:

Oh and the ebay listing says it has "6-speaker Bose Accoustimass sound system", which it turns out isnt true as it has rear seats.

Your point here cannot hold up if you use it in your contentions. You had been physically in the presence of the car twice and had the opportunity on both occasions to reject the car as not described. Surely having rear seats is pretty obvious and not something which later manifests itself?

Secondly,

The SL wasnt on his autotrader website, and I now know why.

So do I - it wasn't intended as a business sale!

However - and it is a very big however - you have a receipt from the business. That changes everything totally. A receipt from a business cannot mean anything else other than a business transaction, whether this was intentional or not. If it had been a hand-written receipt on a blank piece of paper from 'Joe Bloggs' then you would not have had a leg to stand on frankly. As it happens you likely have an escape route, you lucky *****************.

 

[219]

......... it wasn't intended as a business sale!

However - and it is a very big however - you have a receipt from the business. That changes everything totally. A receipt from a business cannot mean anything else other than a business transaction, whether this was intentional or not. If it had been a hand-written receipt on a blank piece of paper from 'Joe Bloggs' then you would not have had a leg to stand on frankly. As it happens you likely have an escape route, you lucky *****************.

It will also be entirely relevant to this whether or not the car was ever registered to him - if not , then it was clearly a car he bought through his business in order to sell on .

 

[Mudster]

I would still like to know how the fact it was an auction effects the status of this transaction.

Jay seems to think it means nothing, I have a gut feeling (nothing more than that) that it changes things substantially.

If the dealer had put that car into Blackbushe and Akash had bought it, would that still be considered a dealer sale?

If not, why is that auction different from an eBay auction?

Read this article written by a solicitor for a consumer rights website:-

http://www.consumerrightsexpert.co.uk/BuyingAUsedCarYourRights.html

The following statement is copied from the article:- How does this apply to an on line auction?

Buying At Auction

Auctions can give great bargains - but you really need a proper knowledge of cars. Before you bid, read the auctioneer's conditions of business carefully. If the seller has a disclaimer on the car, then your rights might not apply.
Buying Online

Buying a used car from a dealer over the Internet can be a gamble, but you have the same rights as if you'd bought it in person. You may even have more rights, including a seven day cooling-off period.

 

[SL300-24]

some of the faults here arent niggles... and whether they were picked up prior to exchange of money or not is irrelevant... the dealer is responsible for sorting these things out.

What about the paintwork though Jay?

Surely any work here should have been negotiated before taking delivery of the car, and was accepted by Simal within the deal.....

Would there be any comeback to the dealer on this?

 

[Sp!ke]

He may have advertised it on an auction site although the actual sale took place without gong through ebay so it wasnt technically a sale by auction.

It matters not where it was advertised or indeed if it wasnt advertised at all. He is a dealer, he provided an official dealer receipt and the goods should therefore be of merchantable quality.

 

[Mudster]

He may have advertised it on an auction site although the actual sale took place without gong through ebay so it wasnt technically a sale by auction.

It matters not where it was advertised or indeed if it wasnt advertised at all. He is a dealer, he provided an official dealer receipt and the goods should therefore be of merchantable quality.

It wasn't advertised on the auction site as a classified or buy it now, it was run as an auction and Akash was the winning bidder (see his link). Akash was then free to inspect the vehicle after the winning bid (he actually inspected before and after from my understanding) paid and drove off.

I believe this changes the sale status, I may be wrong but I would like a legal definition.

 

[219]

I would still like to know how the fact it was an auction effects the status of this transaction.

Jay seems to think it means nothing, I have a gut feeling (nothing more than that) that it changes things substantially.

If the dealer had put that car into Blackbushe and Akash had bought it, would that still be considered a dealer sale?

If not, why is that auction different from an eBay auction?

Read this article written by a solicitor for a consumer rights website:-

Buying a Used Car: Your Rights - Consumer Rights Expert (UK)

The following statement is copied from the article:- How does this apply to an on line auction?

Buying At Auction

Auctions can give great bargains - but you really need a proper knowledge of cars. Before you bid, read the auctioneer's conditions of business carefully. If the seller has a disclaimer on the car, then your rights might not apply.
Buying Online

Buying a used car from a dealer over the Internet can be a gamble, but you have the same rights as if you'd bought it in person. You may even have more rights, including a seven day cooling-off period.

I don't know for certain but I suspect that at a car auction , such as Coy's , or whoever , you buy the car from ( and pay ) the auctioneer ; on the other hand , with eBay you buy the car from ( and pay directly ) the seller ( who then pays a fee to eBay ) .

I suspect that makes all the difference .

 

[Mudster]

Duplicate

 

[Mudster]

Right, having done a bit of digging I've found the following:-

When you buy a car, whether brand new or second hand, you benefit from the protection of certain statutory consumer rights as provided for under the Sale of Goods Act. However there is some variation in these rights depending on how you buy the car and who you buy it from.

Your statutory rights

First and foremost, whoever sells you the car must ensure they have the right to sell it and can pass on full ownership to you. If it turns out that the car is stolen or belongs to a finance company, you will not automatically then own it, even if you have already handed over the cash.

Secondly, the seller must ensure that the car is exactly as described. Therefore if it has air con, CD player etc, then these features must not only exist, but they must also work; if it is in excellent condition, it should be relatively free from marks, scratches, dents and rust; if certain parts have been replaced, they must not then break down after a short time and so on. The description of the car also includes make, model and accurate mileage

Thirdly (and this is where your rights differ), if you have bought the car from a dealer, the car must be of satisfactory quality. Satisfactory quality is defined as what a ‘reasonable person’ would regard as acceptable, taking into account factors such as price paid, fitness for purpose specified, appearance and finish, safety and durability. If it becomes apparent that the car was not of the quality you were led to expect, you are quite within your rights to go back to the dealer, even after some weeks or even months of use. If it was the case that you were invited to carry out a thorough inspection of the car before purchase, and then you go back to complain about something which that inspection should have revealed, you will have no legal rights in that regard.

If you have bought the car from a private seller, who does not normally trade in cars, then there is no legal obligation on the seller to provide a car of satisfactory quality, and it is therefore a much riskier purchase. For this reason, there are more consumer complaints about the purchase of second hand cars than any other, so exercise significant caution – buyer beware!

The seller’s responsibility

In the event that you have to take a car back to the seller on the basis of a breach in one of your statutory rights, the seller cannot try to refer you to the manufacturer under the context of a guarantee or warranty – and particularly not when it involves additional cost to you. Any warranties or insurance policies offered by the seller are additional to these rights and cannot replace them.
Beware of car dealers posing as private sellers. They do this to evade their legal rights as regards satisfactory quality. If the individual trying to sell the car cannot provide paperwork to prove that he/she is the actual owner of the car and has been so for a while, then they may be a dealer trying to get rid of a dodgy car.
If there is a problem

These are your statutory consumer rights. If any of them are breached you are within your rights to go back to the seller, who will then be legally required to remedy the situation in a number of different ways, depending on your situation and the nature of the complaint. The law requires you to act reasonably too, so if the problem is minor and can be repaired easily, within reasonable time, at no additional cost to you and without causing any significant inconvenience, then the dealer can insist on a repair as a first option. But remember that this will not stop you from taking it back if the repair is unsatisfactory or there is something else wrong with the car.

If the car cannot be repaired, if the repair is unsatisfactory, or takes an unreasonable length of time, your next option would be to have it replaced. If this is undesirable or impossible, then you can request a refund, although if some time has passed, you should be aware that any the refund given may well take account of any use you have had of the car since you took possession of it.

In situations where you would like to keep the car and undertake to carry out the repairs yourself, you have another option, which is to request a discount on the price paid.

Buying a car at auction

You may well get the best deal, but there is the risk of reduced consumer protection if something goes wrong. Look out for disclaimers such as ‘sold as seen’ and enquire as to how this affects your statutory rights as regards quality issues. You may not have an opportunity to examine the car or take it for a test drive, and any bid you make will become a legally binding contract at the fall of the hammer!

Buying a car on the internet

When buying a car on the internet, you have just as many rights as if you had bought the car after having seen an ad in the newspaper, provided this is from a dealer. If you go ahead with the purchase, not having had any face to face contact with the dealer, you will also benefit from rights provided under the Distance Selling regulations, which include a 7-day cooling off period.

If however you buy the car as a private sale from an individual, who doesn’t trade in cars for a living, you won’t benefit from the legal requirement of the seller to provide a car of satisfactory quality. It could be a heap of junk, and you would have no legal recourse.

 

[Mudster]

So from the above, we would assume that the purchase was from a dealer no matter if it was a private eBay account or not therefore dealer warranties apply.

Distance Selling Regs don't apply as the car was inspected and paid for in person both before and after auction end.

The difficult bit comes if this goes legal, the terms of the legal claim would be that the car differs from the description and is not merchantable quality or fit for purpose.

1/ It is fit for purpose, it has an MOT and drives as it should.

2/ Is it of Merchantable quality - this is the point you may consider you have redress. However if this went legal you'd need to demonstrate that there were significant differences in the description to the vehicle in reality, taking into consideration the age of the vehicle.

If it were 2 seats not 4 - Blue instead of Red, it didn't have a working engine or gearbox, a wheel was missing etc.......Then you'd have a case.

I think you'll struggle with the list of minor problems, and they are minor problems.