Problem with dealer I recently purchased SL500 from

[Mudster]

Yes, playing devils advocate, if the dealer has half a brain he can see you in small claims one year down the line and win.

On points terms your case is weak to the point of being non-existent.

1. You are an expert in these cars, more so than the dealer.
2. You inspected the car, TWICE.
3. None of your complaints are actually supported by the advert in question, which was very brief.
4. None of your complaints are hard to diagnose or detect, they are all very much in your face even to someone who has never opened a bonnet in their life.
5. The car was very cheap for what it was.
6. The car only had a very short MOT.
7. The car is basically as advertised.
8. The one complaint you had, the dealer discounted a very reasonable £200 for.

the DJ is likely to throw your claim out and award costs against you.

I have to say that's my perspective on this (bar point 1 which I think is not relevant as a fact but rather more an opinion), but I am very interested what the outcome will be and how the dealer handles this.

Plus if it does take the legal route I am also interested what the legal position is.

 

[GordonTarling]

It seems some of you aren't reading aka$h's last post correctly - " I have upto 6 months to take up any issues that develop with the car.". In my eyes, at least, that ought to cover faults which weren't apparent when he bought the car. i.e. if a wheel bearing fails 5 months down the road, that should be covered. The obvious body/paintwork faults wouldn't be covered by this, but unseen corrosion problems certainly should be, as well. Not all faults are apparent on inspection, which is why dealers give guarantees.

 

[raymont]

It's not about how the car was described or how many times the purchaser viewed or inspected it or how knowledgeable or otherwise the purchaser is..

It's about what's wrong with it. If there are faults, e.g. the air conditioning, the dealer has to fix them. This is because it was bought from a dealer.

Small claims court won't take a year. I've used these and it only took a couple of months. Quite a simple process and not intimidating.

 

[NormanC]

I have the car booked in for an MOT, and will be putting the list of items in writing. Allowing 7 days for the seller to respond. Failing that I will issue legal proceedings. Not for bodywork or cosmetic issues but for the items not functioning correctly, and any issues that arise from an MOT.

To save yourself some grief you may wish to read Small claims

You don't seem to be 100% up with the procedures. For example, you suggest giving the seller 7 days to respond where it appears that a month is considered usual. You wouldn't want to fail on a technicality or for being unreasonable.

You could always discuss the problem with the Citizens Advice Bureau. They don't charge a fee and their advice may help in getting the result that you want.

 

[andy_k]

did you ask the seller if the aircon worked? That would be one question that would be high up on my list because it can get expensive putting things right.

changing the condenser and drier is a DIY job that shouldn't take you more than a couple of hours and the cost of parts should be just over £200

How much labour can there be to fit a new control module that they took out (and presumably refitted) to test if it was faulty or not.

Maybe he didn't know that the heating was faulty - some people just don't check that sort of stuff.

By taking him to court what do you hope to achieve?

If it were me, I would think that I picked up a bargain that I was willing to spend a couple of grand getting the bodywork sorted (although in the current economic climate I would expect a bodyshop to knock at least £500 off that price even for a full respray) and just look at the add ons as a bit of extra spending that didn't detract from the fun of owning the car.

Drag it through court and have all sorts of bad feelings assoociated with the car and you may as well sell it now because if you are anything like me, you'll never enjoy owning it

 

[iscaboy]

Drag it through court and have all sorts of bad feelings assoociated with the car and you may as well sell it now because if you are anything like me, you'll never enjoy owning it

he's already gone half way to buggering up his court case with the work he has had done on it... fact.

the only way you can get around it is an independent engineer's report in some detail on each problem area, AS PURCHASED.

ideally you then park it on blocks in a heated garage after the report is done.

we've only heard one side of the story here, and it still doesn't convince me in the least that the buyer is in the right.

my impression is the buyer is trying to force the vendor to produce his dream car at his dream price, that will play very badly indeed in Court.

 

[Mudster]

It's not about how the car was described or how many times the purchaser viewed or inspected it or how knowledgeable or otherwise the purchaser is..

It's about what's wrong with it. If there are faults, e.g. the air conditioning, the dealer has to fix them. This is because it was bought from a dealer.

Small claims court won't take a year. I've used these and it only took a couple of months. Quite a simple process and not intimidating.

It's exactly to do with how the vehicle was described, that's actually the point of the whole process.

Small calims can easily take a year if it's taken to a hearing, I've done that three times with people who were a little odd and fundamentally didn't understand that small claims was a device to present a case not an automatic decision in thier favour, all three lost.

The fourth my insurers paid out becasue it was cheaper to do so than defend.

 

[greggster]

akash, without taking the wind out of your sails at all, if it had been me i would mentally put aside £1k for repairs when buying a used car of this age, and i don't think you'll get anywhere with a claim - even if you did (say £500), thats surely not worth the aggrevation of making the claim and pursuing it for 6 months at best?

If it helps i'll buy the car off you for what you paid

 

[DSLiverpool]

Aka$h the seller is a rogue but you are an experienced guy, the tyres are the biggest alarm signal followed by the short MOT and if you did view it twice surely your spider senses tingled ? BUT (I guess) you thought (as I would) this is a bargain for a really nice car that maybe needs £500 spending on it ?
It boils down to say £1500 spending on it making it and in my opinion its still a bargain at £11000 and will be near perfect once done - a really nice car for £11k
My view buddy hope it helps

PS I too would have bought it for £9.5k had I not just ordered the Maser

 

[NormanC]

Thanks you all for your responses.

The point of the thread was to understand my rights as a consumer.

I contacted the citizen's advice bureau yesterday and have been informed unless the vehicle has been bought at a physical auction my rights as a consumer stand when buying from a car dealer. So Jay was correct.

As I can prove the seller is a trader and I have a receipt from their trading name, I have upto 6 months to take up any issues that develop with the car. The only time this wouldnt apply is to a car that is sub £1k where its expected the car will need repairs, and its expected of a car that value.

I have the car booked in for an MOT, and will be putting the list of items in writing. Allowing 7 days for the seller to respond. Failing that I will issue legal proceedings. Not for bodywork or cosmetic issues but for the items not functioning correctly, and any issues that arise from an MOT.

Another key point, you can insist the car is repaired, it is only be buyer that has the right to demand a refund. The seller cannot impose a refund, except if the vehicle is beyond economical repair.

Surely this excludes wear and tear items and those which deteriorate naturally (I'm thinking of loss of air can gas over time when not used). It would be ludicrous for a dealer to be responsible if, for example, the brakes pads needed replacing after 5 months.

Whilst the problems that you have don't appear to be related to wear and tear, I don't believe that the legal situation is as simple as you have said.

If we apply your statement literally, I could go into a dealer and buy a near wreck for £1005. I could then insist on, for example, a new bodyshell because it is covered in surface rust, a new engine because it's 10% down on power since new, a new gearbox because the current one is noisy, etc., etc.

Whilst I'm deliberately using extremes surely it cannot be as simple as "I have upto 6 months to take up any issues that develop with the car."

Or am I wrong?

 

[Mudster]

Surely this excludes wear and tear items and those which deteriorate naturally (I'm thinking of loss of air can gas over time when not used). It would be ludicrous for a dealer to be responsible if, for example, the brakes pads needed replacing after 5 months.

Whilst the problems that you have don't appear to be related to wear and tear, I don't believe that the legal situation is as simple as you have said.

If we apply your statement literally, I could go into a dealer and buy a near wreck for £1005. I could then insist on, for example, a new bodyshell because it is covered in surface rust, a new engine because it's 10% down on power since new, a new gearbox because the current one is noisy, etc., etc.

Whilst I'm deliberately using extremes surely it cannot be as simple as "I have upto 6 months to take up any issues that develop with the car."

Or am I wrong?

Exactly as you suggest, the theory is it covers any items that were not as described or materially different from described. Plus some major component failures. Gearbox gives up, engine implodes etc....

The difficulty is what is considered reasonable.

The list of problems Akash has provided would be more valid for say a four year old vehicle. But a vehicle of this age they would be considered normal deterioration.

Jay is on the recieving end of all this being a dealer and I'm quite sure he comes across people who buy a 10 year old car and expect every single item to work as the day it left the factory....that's not reasonable, it's a 10 year old car.

 

[nickg]

For me, a reasonable assumption would be that a car with the wrong size wheels/tyres (??) on the front and lacquer peeling off it would likely be a bit of a wrong 'un.
To go back 1 month later and ask for the various faults to be fixed is to rely on the seller/dealer having the morals of a saint.
I am no expert but am not aware of any 2nd hand car dealers that have been canonised by the catholic church, particularly none who do semi-dodgy "private" deals on Ebay

 

[jaymanek]

Jay is on the recieving end of all this being a dealer and I'm quite sure he comes across people who buy a 10 year old car and expect every single item to work as the day it left the factory....that's not reasonable, it's a 10 year old car.

U got that right!

 

[vincenz]

Akash
Whats your problem with the car?
At no point does it say the aircon works and at no point does it say it has a bose hifi.

If I were you i'd safe myself the hassle and inconvinience and stop being so tight and pay the £1500 or whatever to get all the niggles sorted.

If you go down the court route it will give you 12 months of grief and spoil the whole experience of the car.

Chalk it down to one of life's experiences and if you look after it you will probably recoup your losses come sale time.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[219]

For me, a reasonable assumption would be that a car with the wrong size wheels/tyres (??) on the front and lacquer peeling off it would likely be a bit of a wrong 'un.
To go back 1 month later and ask for the various faults to be fixed is to rely on the seller/dealer having the morals of a saint.
I am no expert but am not aware of any 2nd hand car dealers that have been canonised by the catholic church, particularly none who do semi-dodgy "private" deals on Ebay

I can't imagine what you mean

The dealer who supplied my car is as honest as the day is long , and would do anything to please any of his valued customers

 

[dinoy]

I bought my SL500 Silver Arrow about a month ago, now the list of problems seems to just keep growing.

I bought the car on ebay, but the seller is not listed as a business seller. But from their feedback they are a car dealer:

eBay Feedback profile for j4yll

The seller also gave me a proper used car invoice, and took payment via a debit card.

Since searching their name on google I found this:

Courtyard Cars | Quality Used Cars in Berkswell | Homepage

So the seller is clearly a dealer.

The car was described as being in good condition.

When I went to buy the car, he seller suddenly realised that the drivers seat didnt move. He said it does occasionally work, and it was just a switch. I got quoted £145 for the switch from MB and my indy quoted £55 to fit. The seller agreed to discount the price by £200.

About an hour after I collected the car, I noticed the A\C wasnt working, but thought it would just be a £50 re-gas job. Took it to Kwik-fit and it has a leak. Most likely a condensor, £360 for the part and labour to fit.

Another issue is the heating, when the vehicle is stationary there is no hot air. I popped in at Jay's on the way back home the day I collected it and his technician had told me there is a fault on both the recirculating pump and duo valve. They cleared the faults, but when my indy in london checked the faults had come back. Just the cost of the parts is over £300.

Before ordering a new switch for the drivers seat, the indy wanted to check the control module was OK, and swapped the 2 modules over. The problem is with the module as the seat worked with the other module. The price of a replacement module is £350 + labour to fit.

I sent the seller a message today:
Hi,

Im yet to receive a log book for the SL, Im not sure if you have sent it on, or are still waiting for it.

It seems the car has a number or issues. The heating does not function correctly when the vehicle is stationary. A diagnosis check has shown the fault to be a faulty recirculating pump and duo valve. I have obtained a print out showing this.

The air conditioning on the car wasnt working when I collected it from you. I thought it would cost £50 to have regassed by kwik-fit and I wasnt too fussed. Having taken it to kwik-fit today, their system check has shown there is a leak. I will now have to take it elsewhere to have it repaired, as kwik fit dont fix leaks.

Ive no idea at this stage the total cost of these repairs. Had it have been just the £50 re-gas Id not have bothered you with it. but it seems it is now mounting up.

Response:
Hello, the V5 is on it's way to you.


Regards

My reply:

What do you propose to do with regard to the required repairs?

It's not a few pounds, else I'd have sorted it.

His response:
I'm sorry it's a eBay auction sale sold as seen, you viewed the car twice, had every chance to do what ever checks, I pointed out the seat which I noticed to be faulty and agreed on £200 discount which most people would not of done and now it's been now nearly a month since the auction end.

Regards

Now where do I stand?

if u want to swap for my sl 500 1999 58k miles happy to do so, the fact he was less than truthful is fine but the fact remains it is a nice car

 

[kieroncashin]

why does every one winge when buying a used car .when u buy a new car sometimes there r probs.the maker only gives warrenty for max of 5 years,then its get stuffed. dealers r not all crooks. i never sold 1 car that i new was written off/stolen/recovered/major accident damaged etc. i always moted cars. all i ever got was grief. remember these cars r traded in by joe public. four fifths of all cars clocked r done by owners, that seller is not proper dealer. if u want revenge forget trading standards.report him to customs/excise and tax man as he is prob fiddling.they will investigate every lead. with thanks. k c ps. caviet emptor

 

[iscaboy]

why does every one winge when buying a used car

Because 99.9% of private buyers think they are ace mechanics who can spot a dog a million miles away.

 

[NormanC]

i always moted cars.

I worked out most of this post eventually but this bit above has me foxed. Could someone please translate?

 

[BlackC55]

M.O.T 'ed