Snow socks or chains

[evdok]

AutoSock: Snow Socks - Which? First Look Review - YouTube

chains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7fBcfbtQ-4

 

[rf065]

What the last two winters have done is made me think about coughing up for some chains or snow socks - just in case.

Is prevention not better than cure?
If you slide off the road into a ditch or hit another person or vehicle, will chains or snow snocks help anyone?

Most people still have this perception that winter tyres are for snow and fail to realise they are for temperatures below 7C regardless of conditions, where summer tyres no longer work best.
Between December and February, how many days in the balmy UK are over 7C anyway, especially in the early morning and late evening rush hours when traffic is at it's heaviest?

Russ

 

[@MARK]

Between December and February, how many days in the balmy UK are over 7C anyway, especially in the early morning and late evening rush hours when traffic is at it's heaviest?

Russ

This many (although note that MOST days this year were above freezing by quite a bit)

 

[LTD]

Winter tyres are for 7C and lower.

Apart from a few days, the graph shows nearly 3 months of correct operating temperatures for winter tyres.

The November figures would also be interesting to add ...

 

[@MARK]

Winter tyres are for 7C and lower.

Apart from a few days, the graph shows nearly 3 months of correct operating temperatures for winter tyres.

The November figures would also be interesting to add ...

Your wish

 

[Charles Morgan]

I use winter tyres, kept me going on the day of the Blizzard here when the M25, M4 and Heathrow were shut. A friend in Durham used snow socks on his BMW which he thought were magical (compared to going sideways) but rapidly tired of having to take them off on clear sections of road to avoid shredding them and then having to put them back on. If everywhere is snowy then chains or socks are fine, but having to change them every time you shift from one state to the other would drive me mad, and having wrestled with a puncture recently, fiddling around in the cold would not appeal.

If I had the choice it would be socks though - chains are if I remember unlawful on clear roads and make a frightful noise.

 

[simonegypt]

I am in agreement with the comments that we don’t have enough snow each winter to justify snow tyres. However, if the ‘snow’ tyres area thought of as winter tyres, it does make sense. It is widely advertised that the rubber of winter tyres is designed to be more effective at temperatures below 7ºC. The improvements in cornering grip and in stopping distances are very reassuring. Winter tyres are not an automatic get-out for over enthusiastic driving; you can still skid, get stuck and / or find a ditch.
I have never used snow socks, but have used chains with good success. Weissenfels Klack & Go Quatro are incredibly easy to fit and one set will fit the tyre sizes of all our cars.
I carry snow chains in bad conditions for the same reason I have a fire extinguisher- could be vital, but I hope never to use either. In fact, chains have been used more in mud than snow.
I think some of the winter / summer tyre issues are influenced by the tyre companies themselves. The tread patterns of some tyres are becoming less and less suitable for cold conditions. The technology is here so we now have a range of tyres where one can select a tyre for a specific style of driving, road conditions or even because of the cosmetic appeal. The winter tyre fitment has become mandatory in several countries and was introduced here in Lombardia last year. Logistically impossible to fit all the cars within the time available, those that were keen fitted early, some didn’t bother. Not mandatory this year, but recommended.

 

[Dryce]

Winter tyres are for 7C and lower.

Apart from a few days, the graph shows nearly 3 months of correct operating temperatures for winter tyres.

The November figures would also be interesting to add ...

So the the 'normal' tyres just switch off at 7?

I doubt it.

The real question is how the performance of 'normal' tyres deteriorates below 7 degrees.

There is almost no information (please please prove me wrong on this) other than thatnumber '7' - and even that ISTR only comes from Continental but is oft-repeated.

If the tyre industry is better than the cosmeticvs industry one might assume some decent hard graphical representations and studies showing (a) the real level of advantage and (b) the changes at different ambient temperatures.

 

[Spinal]

Edit: Also these guys run annual tests of the various winter tyre brands/models...:
http://www.oeamtc.at/

Here's their 2009 test, sort of translated:
http://www.nesscitytyres.co.uk/a2009.pdf

But needless to say, we've already had this debate

 

[@MARK]

Edit: Also these guys run annual tests of the various winter tyre brands/models...:
ÖAMTC/Willkommen

Here's their 2009 test, sort of translated:
http://www.nesscitytyres.co.uk/a2009.pdf

But needless to say, we've already had this debate

Those figures don't actually look that great. Indeed the test figures of premium tyres over budget tyres have better improvements in stopping distance in the same way that worn tyres take longer to stop than new ones etc etc etc.

And what is this ice they refer to.

Last year a big issue was sheet ice where we went though a cycle of melting in the day and freezing at night. You could not even walk on the stuff never mind drive on it regardless of tyre type.

 

[rf065]

Last year a big issue was sheet ice where we went though a cycle of melting in the day and freezing at night. You could not even walk on the stuff never mind drive on it regardless of tyre type.

Interesting you mention this, but our street is on an incline and we had such ice last year, the only way to stay on your feet was to grab hold of a lamp post or whatever was handy to stop you falling.

Once in the car however, I could reverse out of the drive and up the hill without the traction control light coming on while all the neighbours could not get their cars to move.

Once again, you underestimate the traction of winter tyres.

Russ

 

[Sp!ke]

There are a lot of non believers whern the winter tyre topic comes up.

I've not seen anyone that has actually bought a set being unconvinced of their virtues though.

 

[Dryce]

I've not seen anyone that has actually bought a set being unconvinced of their virtues though.

And many people simply recommend the product that they bought regardless of it's effectiveness or worth.

I'll flag myself up as a having what I'd call the 'unbeliever' reflex. Somebody makes a claim about a product and I won't believe it until I understand it, see it, or see some plausible evidence.

The graphs posted above don't say much other than to show the magic '7'. So were they testing at 6.5 or what?

The issue I have is not that they work or not. I will accept that in general they do.

But so far I'm unconvinced as to the level of benefit under given operating circumstances within a context applicable to the UK.

 

[rf065]

But so far I'm unconvinced as to the level of benefit under given operating circumstances within a context applicable to the UK.

Most people are, until they try them, then there is no going back.

Russ

 

[Sp!ke]

Actually I kind of agree in a bizarre way.

Last year when the snow came, I was well prepared with my winter tyres and managed to drive my 50 mile a day commute in the worst of the weather. The tyres were great.

However, I was almost alone in the office. For 10 days or more every other Tom D!ck and Harry just used the snow as an excuse to work from home.

So yes, I did have appropriate tyres for the conditions but not only did I spend my hard earned on them, I missed out on doing what everyone else did by working from home and had to fund 700 miles of fuel that others didnt.

What I do think however is that most of us are now being sold the wrong type of tyre for our countries climate. Tyre technology has moved on and the tyre resellers are barely playing catch-up. In most parts of the UK we dont really have a need for full on winter tyres *or* full on summer tyres so 99% of the population are being mis-sold.

 

[Dryce]

Last year when the snow came, I was well prepared with my winter tyres and managed to drive my 50 mile a day commute in the worst of the weather. The tyres were great.

However, I was almost alone in the office. For 10 days or more every other Tom D!ck and Harry just used the snow as an excuse to work from home.

Question is would tyres have made any difference to those who didn't come in?

And also had you not had winter tyres would you have managed your journey anyway?

What I do think however is that most of us are now being sold the wrong type of tyre for our countries climate. Tyre technology has moved on and the tyre resellers are barely playing catch-up. In most parts of the UK we dont really have a need for full on winter tyres *or* full on summer tyres so 99% of the population are being mis-sold.

Manufacturers such as Michelin do appear to make claims that their compounds are better. In the past manufcaturers have made claims about tread patterns and water dispersal.

But to the consumer the claims are vague and look rather like the claims made by the fuel suppliers about improved economy or the cosmetics industry.

It would be nice to see some clear cut well explained data.

 

[Sp!ke]

Question is would tyres have made any difference to those who didn't come in?.

Yes

And also had you not had winter tyres would you have managed your journey anyway?

Definitely not.

But to the consumer the claims are vague and look rather like the claims made by the fuel suppliers about improved economy or the cosmetics industry.

It would be nice to see some clear cut well explained data.

I think they should include optimal temperature range info on the tyres to simplify things.

In my own experience the all season tyres on Mrs Sp!kes car behave like a quality summer tyre in summer and in winter it is hard to separate the levels of grip between them and the full on winter tyres I have on my car.

Given there is little price difference between a 4 season tyre and a summer tyre, I no longer understand why anyone would opt for a season specific summer tyre unless the car was a track day car or some kind of performance monster.

 

[flowrider]

.............Given there is little price difference between a 4 season tyre and a summer tyre, I no longer understand why anyone would opt for a season specific summer tyre unless the car was a track day car or some kind of performance monster.

I looked for all season tyres for my ML and couldn't find any in my size (265/45R20). My lease contract also states that I must return the vehicle with a "premium" brand tyre fitted so the choice is even smaller than non existant.

David

 

[rf065]

I no longer understand why anyone would opt for a season specific summer tyre unless the car was a track day car or some kind of performance monster.

I think you are on to something there.

We've all listened to stories from old codgers about how good their old cars were in snow many years ago. Well I recently visited a new motor museum and was looking at a few cars from the 1960's, Hillman Imps, Minis etc. One thing they all had in common was the original tyres looked more like all season tyres. They had similiar tread patterns and lots of sipes in the tread blocks.

This got me thinking how much modern tyres have changed in the last few decades. First we went low profile, then wider, then more extreme tread patterns with very little or no sipes at all. They have evolved into summer tyres over time as they have dropped every aspect that would have have given even the slightest grip in winter conditions to such an extent that they are now lethal in snow or ice.

With this in mind I would give this answer to the original question regarding chains or snow socks;

If you run modern summer tyres over the winter, there is every chance that you will need snow socks or chains as a RWD Mercedes will at some point get stuck.

If you want to avoid the hassle of grappling under wheel arches in -5C with chains or snow snocks and numb fingers, then leave the car off the road for the winter or buy a spare set of wheels with winter tyres and carry on as if it was still summer.

Russ

 

[Dryce]

If you run modern summer tyres over the winter, there is every chance that you will need snow socks or chains as a RWD Mercedes will at some point get stuck.

I refer you back to original point about the number of winters where we get snowy conditions.

IME ....... not many.

So chances are you WON'T GET STUCK AT SOME POINT.

If you want to avoid the hassle of grappling under wheel arches in -5C with chains or snow snocks and numb fingers, then leave the car off the road for the winter or buy a spare set of wheels with winter tyres and carry on as if it was still summer.

At -5 degrees the problem is typically not snow but ice. And that introduces a whole lot more risks. Typically if you're on snow you know about it then you modify your approach and in extremis use socks/chains ... whatever.

Without thnking too hard I'd reckon that 99% (maybe more) of days/nights where temps have been -5 deg in my lifetime there has been ....... NO SNOW on the road.

And the biggest risk has been. BLACK ICE.

We get two remarkably bad winters in a row and suddenly this is assumed to be the norm.