The EV fact thread

[Steveml63]

Its not just about how careful a driver you arem. A radar-based Collision Avoidance system (automatic braking), when mandatory, will save your ar$e - literally, as it will prevent other drivers from rear-ending you when you're stopped at the lights. How can this be anything other than a good thing?

My wife has been saved twice now by the radar collision avoidance system fitted in her Mercedes ML63 AMG and later in her BMW X3M40i.
On both occasions she was driving at moderate safe speed in fog and on both occasions the cars braked as the radar had seen stationary in one case, and nearly stopped cars in her lane in the other case.
In the UAE, winter fog is totally different to what we get in the UK. You can be driving in sunshine one second and then drive into a virtual wall of fog the next.
The fog is much, much thicker than what we get in the UK and previously there was much worse compliance of people using lights and fog lights.
In the last two years, Abu Dhabi has fitted an amazing warning system on the motorways - every 100m or so, there is an led light panel on the crash barrier of the central reservation that lights up yellow in heavy fog and flashes red/blue if there is a problem ahead

 

[ALFAitalia]

Well I'm back.....I drove to Dobwalls, delivered the Tesla and collected the Focus...a quick look around Trago Mills, picked up a few bits and possibly the worlds biggest pasty, ate it, and drove back. No issues either way.
Tesla was an 85D....its was not quite fully charged...but showed a 260 mile range....208 miles later it showed an 83 mile range! Traffic was lighter than I expected so I was at or close to the speed limit mostly....but obviously not a lot of fast roads past Southampton.
Focus was a high mileage manual worth a few hundred quid and only used to get me back really.
Verdict....the Tesla was fine, quick.....and well that's it...a real one trick pony. Felt very heavy on the corners but still had a rather harder ride than my 212 Sport. Felt a bit wider than my E...but easy enough to judge where the corners are. On the subject of corners....it did not like then much...fine as a cruiser, if firm, but a long way from a Sport saloon. To sum up...pretty boring and far from a drivers car. Want to get from A to B cheaply then it's fine. Want any driver involvement then look elsewhere. It seems to have absorbed it's 200,000 miles well though... only the drivers seat showing any wear. White is not a sensible choice for a car seat and it seems to have become marked from wearing jeans etc. It' was an early one so the less said about panel gaps and interior quality the better!
Focus folding roof. Heavy , manual, slow for a 2.0l petrol, thirsty, roof worked! 200,000 miles, worth nothing, still more involving to drive than the Tesla...just....but more effort.
Nice day out though.
Beer o'clock !

 

[PXW]

Well I'm back.....I drove to Dobwalls, delivered the Tesla and collected the Focus...a quick look around Trago Mills, picked up a few bits and possibly the worlds biggest pasty, ate it, and drove back. No issues either way.
Tesla was an 85D....its was not quite fully charged...but showed a 260 mile range....208 miles later it showed an 83 mile range! Traffic was lighter than I expected so I was at or close to the speed limit mostly....but obviously not a lot of fast roads past Southampton.
Focus was a high mileage manual worth a few hundred quid and only used to get me back really.
Verdict....the Tesla was fine, quick.....and well that's it...a real one trick pony. Felt very heavy on the corners but still had a rather harder ride than my 212 Sport. Felt a bit wider than my E...but easy enough to judge where the corners are. On the subject of corners....it did not like then much...fine as a cruiser, if firm, but a long way from a Sport saloon. To sum up...pretty boring and far from a drivers car. Want to get from A to B cheaply then it's fine. Want any driver involvement then look elsewhere. It seems to have absorbed it's 200,000 miles well though... only the drivers seat showing any wear. White is not a sensible choice for a car seat and it seems to have become marked from wearing jeans etc. It' was an early one so the less said about panel gaps and interior quality the better!
Focus folding roof. Heavy , manual, slow for a 2.0l petrol, thirsty, roof worked! 200,000 miles, worth nothing, still more involving to drive than the Tesla...just....but more effort.
Nice day out though.
Beer o'clock !

But, but, but…that’s not possible…it was winter, and weather, and heaters, and that indicated 260 miles would clearly only have got you to the corner shop….

 

[markjay]

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[GrahamT]

 

[markjay]

The most - and least - reliable electric cars have been named...

Logic would suggest that EVs should be less likely to breakdown because they have fewer mechanical moving parts than a traditional petrol or diesel model. Is that true?

mol.im

Well Done, Tesla

Took you a while, but you got there in the end!

 

[ALFAitalia]

"The Tesla Model Y has been ranked the most reliable electric car. It is proving a lot more dependable than the smaller Model 3, owners told What Car?"


Which is odd as they are basically exactly the same car with a slightly differently styled, taller body????!!! Its not even really smaller with a very similar footprint....only 50mm length in it!!

 

[markjay]

"The Tesla Model Y has been ranked the most reliable electric car. It is proving a lot more dependable than the smaller Model 3, owners told What Car?"


Which is odd as they are basically exactly the same car with a slightly differently styled, taller body????!!! Its not even really smaller with a very similar footprint....only 50mm length in it!!

I remember watching a YouTube clip where Sandy Munro explains that Model-Y body is built using completely different technics to previous Tesla models.

 

[ALFAitalia]

"The Model Y is built on the same platform (chassis) as the Model 3, so while it’s not the only SUV that Tesla will sell you, it’s smaller and more affordable than the company’s other SUV-type car, the Model X."

Tesla Model 3 vs. Tesla Model Y: which is better? - cinch

Read our guide for a helpful comparison of the Tesla Model 3 hatchback and Tesla Model Y small SUV. Decide which is best for you with our help.

www.cinch.co.uk

 

[Steveml63]

"The Model Y is built on the same platform (chassis) as the Model 3, so while it’s not the only SUV that Tesla will sell you, it’s smaller and more affordable than the company’s other SUV-type car, the Model X."

Tesla Model 3 vs. Tesla Model Y: which is better? - cinch

Read our guide for a helpful comparison of the Tesla Model 3 hatchback and Tesla Model Y small SUV. Decide which is best for you with our help.

www.cinch.co.uk

Depends on the year of manufacture.
Early Model Y were built on the same platform as Model 3 - but later ones now have front & rear single castings that replace hundreds of parts with just two!
Tesla don’t do model year updates - they constantly introduce new parts as they become available.
Early model 3’s had conventional air conditioning system - the later ones have heat pumps with the ingenious Octavalve (this again is very compact and replaces multiple parts on a conventional system).
Tesla also introduced structural battery packs on some US made Model Y’s - where the seats are bolted to a plate above the battery pack and the whole battery pack and seat assembly is lifted up into the car body on the production line.
This is likely to be part of the manufacturing process on the Cybertaxi and cheaper model.
Whatever you think of Elon Musk - he has a good knack of taking on very clever engineers - who don’t have the usual boundaries that prevent innovation,

 

[markjay]

Depends on the year of manufacture.
Early Model Y were built on the same platform as Model 3 - but later ones now have front & rear single castings that replace hundreds of parts with just two!
Tesla don’t do model year updates - they constantly introduce new parts as they become available.
Early model 3’s had conventional air conditioning system - the later ones have heat pumps with the ingenious Octavalve (this again is very compact and replaces multiple parts on a conventional system).
Tesla also introduced structural battery packs on some US made Model Y’s - where the seats are bolted to a plate above the battery pack and the whole battery pack and seat assembly is lifted up into the car body on the production line.
This is likely to be part of the manufacturing process on the Cybertaxi and cheaper model.
Whatever you think of Elon Musk - he has a good knack of taking on very clever engineers - who don’t have the usual boundaries that prevent innovation,

The reduction on number of parts increases reliability (there's actually a very simple formula for that).

In the same way that the Glock 17 is more reliable than the Colt 1911, or EVs is more reliable than ICE cars, or a quartrz watch is more reliable than a mechanical one, etc.

Perhaps the reason that the Model 3 didn't make the shortlist is because there are too many early examples around l, skewing the stats.

 

[BTB 500]

or EVs is more reliable than ICE cars

Is that an EV fact or an EV opinion?

The 2024 What Car? reliability survey doesn't entirely agree. The 2022 onward MG4 was the worst:

Reliability rating 63.8%

With issues in almost all of our fault categories, 30% of the cars reported on went wrong. MG only paid for repairs in 55% of cases, leaving 39% of owners with bills of £1000 or more. Repairs weren’t always swift, either; 68% of affected cars took more than a week to put right.

What went wrong? Non-motor electrics 15%, interior trim 9%, bodywork 7%, motor 7%, sat-nav/ infotainment 7%, battery/charging system 4%, gearbox/clutch 4%, motor electrics 4%, air-con 2%, brakes 2%, steering 2%, suspension 2%

Owner's view: "The charging socket on my brand new MG 4 broke after just 10 weeks of ownership."

But some others weren't great - the Corsa was specifically named as having more problems than the petrol version:

The electric Corsa is more fault-prone than its petrol sibling, with 25% of owners reporting issues, mainly with the air-con, drive battery/charging and non-motor electrics. Half took more than a week to fix.

The Taycan was pretty unimpressive for a premium brand:

More than half (58%) of the Taycans in our survey went wrong, with a range of issues including air-con, drive battery/charging, bodywork and various electrical issues. Getting cars fixed was slow, too; 56% were off the road for more than seven days

Full story here:

What Car? Reliability Survey: Most and least reliable electric cars

In our annual Reliability Survey, we ask readers to rate the dependability of cars aged up to five years old. Here we list the most and least reliable electric cars in the UK

www.whatcar.com

 

[190]

EVs more reliable than ICE cars,

It seems it would be more accurate to say the the simplicity of an EV should theoretically make it more reliable than an ICE and perhaps they will be when they have had as many years of development as ICE's have.

In the mean time MG sounds like a risky proposition in terms of reliability and the manufacturers reluctance to stand by their product.

 

[ChipChop]

Depends on the year of manufacture.
Early Model Y were built on the same platform as Model 3 - but later ones now have front & rear single castings that replace hundreds of parts with just two!
Tesla don’t do model year updates - they constantly introduce new parts as they become available.

Whatever you think of Elon Musk - he has a good knack of taking on very clever engineers - who don’t have the usual boundaries that prevent innovation,

The front & rear 'castings' you are talking about are the panels that make up the cars structure. Inner front & rear wings/ wheel arch assemblies. Unitary construction instead of multiple sections spot welded together. I would imagine there are both advantages and disadvantages to such a construction. Cheaper to manufacture being an advantage. One single large pressing. Very expensive/ beyond economic to repair being a disavantage.

Constantly introducing new parts as they become available also sounds very much like a headache for owners/ garages down the line. Clever engineering?

 

[SmartAmg]

Is that an EV fact or an EV opinion?

The 2024 What Car? reliability survey doesn't entirely agree. The 2022 onward MG4 was the worst:

Yep, saw that. All I can say is, my MG4 has been flawless in the 4 months I've had it. As have lots of other owners
(Touch Wood) and that's all I can go off.
Also I tend to take these surveys with a large pinch of Salt. And thats not just car's.

 

[Steveml63]

The front & rear 'castings' you are talking about are the panels that make up the cars structure. Inner front & rear wings/ wheel arch assemblies. Unitary construction instead of multiple sections spot welded together. I would imagine there are both advantages and disadvantages to such a construction. Cheaper to manufacture being an advantage. One single large pressing. Very expensive/ beyond economic to repair being a disavantage.

Constantly introducing new parts as they become available also sounds very much like a headache for owners/ garages down the line. Clever engineering?

Actually I saw an amazing video (I think it was on YouTube) that shows that the castings are repairable and Tesla sell individual repair pieces for them. The Bodyshop that was featured in the video was actually impressed on how easy they were to repair - compared with conventional car construction.
It surprised me when I saw this - as I assumed like you that they could not be repaired!
I just found the video - link below

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Cheers
Steve

 

[Steveml63]

Constantly introducing new parts as they become available also sounds very much like a headache for owners/ garages down the line. Clever engineering?

I worked for 20 years in the Automotive industry - 15 of them with one of the largest diagnostic manufacturers - they made the dealer tools for Mercedes, Fiat, Mitsubishi, Triumph motorcycles, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault and many more.
My Tesla model 3 has a complete onboard diagnostic & service system that me, a workshop or Tesla workshop can access that gives absolutely detailed diagnostics on all the vehicle systems.
It can also be remotely viewed by Tesla technicians anywhere in the world - when my car is either parked at home connected to my WiFi or if it is away from home and connected to the phone network.
This makes is so easy to diagnose faults and get the correct parts ordered and fitted - in or out of warranty.
I am just so glad that I don’t earn my living from my previous automotive companies - as they will surely go out of business in the coming years with the likes of Tesla and the Chinese auto makers dominating the market and forcing the closure of many traditional car makers.
GM, Ford, Stellantis, Mercedes and VW group along with Bosch are all facing problems now - these will get much worse in next few years.
Honda & Nissan merger will see closure of factories and many job losses - due to restructuring and economies of scale.

 

[markjay]

It seems it would be more accurate to say the the simplicity of an EV should theoretically make it more reliable than an ICE and perhaps they will be when they have had as many years of development as ICE's have...

EVs have significantly less moving parts than ICE cars, and they are therefore inherently more reliable. As I said, these things can actually be calculated:

Reliability of Systems

Many objects consist of more components. The mutual arrangement of the individual elements influences the resultant reliability. The formulae are shown for the resultant reliability of series arrangement, as well as for parallel and combined arrangement. The possibility of reliability increasing...

www.intechopen.com

...In the mean time MG sounds like a risky proposition in terms of reliability and the manufacturers reluctance to stand by their product.

I am obviously not suggesting that any EV is more reliable than any ICE car, just that statically EVs are bound to be more reliable than ICE cars, due to the much simpler design.

Where I think the confusion arises from, is due to the fact that newer cars tend to have far more electronic high-tech systems, relying on complex software. Such systems indeed add complexity and reduce overall reliability. From the perspective of the motorist, if the car is at the dealer for a week for a warranty repair, it makes no difference if this is due to faulty Piezo Diesel injectors or a noisy reverse camera.

However, this isn't unique to EVs. It is true that statistically, EVs are adversely affected because there are very few old unsophisticated EVs on the roads, compared to a multitude of old ICE cars with little electronics of software issues.

But, ultimately, software bugs and electronic issues are essentially the same for modern cars, whether EV or ICE or Hybrid.

I don't have any figures to hand, but I seriously doubt that (in relative terms) there are more issues with EV motors and batteries than there are with ICE engines, transmission, and emissions control systems.

 

[markjay]

Is that an EV fact or an EV opinion?

The 2024 What Car? reliability survey doesn't entirely agree. The 2022 onward MG4 was the worst:



But some others weren't great - the Corsa was specifically named as having more problems than the petrol version:



The Taycan was pretty unimpressive for a premium brand:



Full story here:

What Car? Reliability Survey: Most and least reliable electric cars

In our annual Reliability Survey, we ask readers to rate the dependability of cars aged up to five years old. Here we list the most and least reliable electric cars in the UK

www.whatcar.com

This is not directly related to the point I made.

A set-up of an electric motor and battery will always be simpler and have (much) less moving parts than an ICE engine with transmission and emissions control system - that's a fact, not an opinion... and for this reason, it will be inherently more reliable.

But when looking at overall car reliability surveys, you need to differentiate between EV-related issues and general car-related issues.

The poor fit of body panels and the shoddy paintwork job of early Teslas, for example, has nothing to do with the car's method of propulsion. But the crap AdBlue system on MB cars, is 100% down to the Diesel engine. Etc.

 

[ChipChop]

Actually I saw an amazing video (I think it was on YouTube) that shows that the castings are repairable and Tesla sell individual repair pieces for them. The Bodyshop that was featured in the video was actually impressed on how easy they were to repair - compared with conventional car construction.
It surprised me when I saw this - as I assumed like you that they could not be repaired!
I just found the video - link below

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Cheers
Steve

Thanks. An interesting video. Cast aluminium inner wing structure is a new one on me. Repairing those with repair sections will be far from easy. Aluminum welding is not a skill most garages possess. I would also assume the aluminium is heat treated for strength post casting. If so any rewelding would require the whole structure to be heat treated again which is impossible in situ. Puzzling.