The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

Thanks. An interesting video. Cast aluminium inner wing structure is a new one on me. Repairing those with repair sections will be far from easy. Aluminum welding is not a skill most garages possess. I would also assume the aluminium is heat treated for strength post casting. If so any rewelding would require the whole structure to be heat treated again which is impossible in situ. Puzzling.

Adhesives and rivets.

 

[BTB 500]

I am obviously not suggesting that any EV is more reliable than any ICE car, just that statically EVs are bound to be more reliable than ICE cars, due to the much simpler design.

Where I think the confusion arises from, is due to the fact that newer cars tend to have far more electronic high-tech systems, relying on complex software. Such systems indeed add complexity and reduce overall reliability. From the perspective of the motorist, if the car is at the dealer for a week for a warranty repair, it makes no difference if this is due to faulty Piezo Diesel injectors or a noisy reverse camera.

However, this isn't unique to EVs. It is true that statistically, EVs are adversely affected because there are very few old unsophisticated EVs on the roads, compared to a multitude of old ICE cars with little electronics of software issues.

But, ultimately, software bugs and electronic issues are essentially the same for modern cars, whether EV or ICE or Hybrid.

I don't have any figures to hand, but I seriously doubt that (in relative terms) there are more issues with EV motors and batteries than there are with ICE engines, transmission, and emissions control systems.

IIRC What Car? surveys only cover cars up to 5 years old, so you should be able to directly compare their ICE and EV figures without any significant skew from more reliable 'old tech' ICE cars (if that's really a thing).

That 2024 survey would (I think) exclude the recent battery recalls from Jaguar, Porsche and Audi. Even if the percentage of cars expected to actually be faulty (i.e. at risk of bursting into flames) is relatively small the recalls are pretty big (numerically) and all the 'potentially affected' cars are limited to 80% charge until such time as they can be checked/updated (apart from the I-PACEs that Jaguar are buying back and crushing). If I was an owner I'd certainly be including that as an issue in any future survey.

 

[Bellow]

This is not directly related to the point I made.

A set-up of an electric motor and battery will always be simpler and have (much) less moving parts than an ICE engine with transmission and emissions control system - that's a fact, not an opinion... and for this reason, it will be inherently more reliable.

You ignore completely that there is nothing in an ICE drivetrain that comes close to Li-Ion battery volatility. Unstable = unreliable.

But the crap AdBlue system on MB cars, is 100% down to the Diesel engine. Etc.

Is due to one method of NOx reduction. Other methods are available but eschewed.

 

[ChipChop]

Adhesives and rivets.

A bonded & riveted 'patch' on a structural section would pass an MOT?

 

[Bellow]

A bonded & riveted 'patch' on a structural section would pass an MOT?

Good question! The answer I gave was from the video and related to crash repair. Would an MOT permit such a repair because it wasn't a repair to corrosion damage - which is what the 'only welded' refers to I think?

 

[BTB 500]

A set-up of an electric motor and battery will always be simpler and have (much) less moving parts than an ICE engine with transmission and emissions control system - that's a fact, not an opinion... and for this reason, it will be inherently more reliable.

We're not talking about a milk float with lead acid batteries, brushed motors and big resistors to control the speed - the drivetrain of modern EVs is far more complex than most people think. A battery is just a big box with some terminals on it? But have a look at this recent video from Edd China about fixing a 'common problem with EVs'. Bear in mind that this Nissan Leaf is a pretty basic & simple EV (NB with under 21k miles on the clock ...) that doesn't have heating/cooling systems for the battery pack:

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There are probably other EV-specific complexities apart from the drivetrain (and charging/monitoring systems). AFAIK ICE cars don't use heat pumps for example - these are presumably more complex than a pipe bringing hot water from the coolant system.

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
This has just been released for the Cybertruck by Tesla - a fully interactive wiring diagram and connector details colours and pinouts - all on the onboard computer screen.
Gone are the days of traditional car manufacturers hiding behind “block exemption” to prevent owners and non-franchised garages from obtaining service information and official diagnostic tools!

Tesla Adds Interactive Wiring Diagram to Service Mode Plus for the Cybertruck

Tesla adds Connector and Wiring Service Diagram to the Cybertruck, enabling easy debugging for electrical issues.

www.notateslaapp.com

Cheers
Steve

 

[markjay]

Is due to one method of NOx reduction. Other methods are available but eschewed.

So what method would you have used instead of AdBlue, had you been MB's chief engineer, to achieve EU6 emissions levels on Diesel engines?

Keeping in mind that VW had to retrofit AdBlue to meet the requirements....

 

[markjay]

We're not talking about a milk float with lead acid batteries, brushed motors and big resistors to control the speed - the drivetrain of modern EVs is far more complex than most people think. A battery is just a big box with some terminals on it? But have a look at this recent video from Edd China about fixing a 'common problem with EVs'. Bear in mind that this Nissan Leaf is a pretty basic & simple EV (NB with under 21k miles on the clock ...) that doesn't have heating/cooling systems for the battery pack:

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

There are probably other EV-specific complexities apart from the drivetrain (and charging/monitoring systems). AFAIK ICE cars don't use heat pumps for example - these are presumably more complex than a pipe bringing hot water from the coolant system.

As complex as it may be... an EV has significantly less moving parts than an ICE engine and automatic transmission. This is a crucial factor for any mechanical device. Software bugs and battery volatility, etc, do not change the basic principles of mechanical reliability.

 

[markjay]

IIRC What Car? surveys only cover cars up to 5 years old, so you should be able to directly compare their ICE and EV figures without any significant skew from more reliable 'old tech' ICE cars (if that's really a thing).

That 2024 survey would (I think) exclude the recent battery recalls from Jaguar, Porsche and Audi. Even if the percentage of cars expected to actually be faulty (i.e. at risk of bursting into flames) is relatively small the recalls are pretty big (numerically) and all the 'potentially affected' cars are limited to 80% charge until such time as they can be checked/updated (apart from the I-PACEs that Jaguar are buying back and crushing). If I was an owner I'd certainly be including that as an issue in any future survey.

Opinions may vary... It depends on who you're asking:

EVs are 59% less likely to break down, says Start Rescue

The myth about poor electric car reliability has been busted, according to data from one of the UK’s leading breakdown providers.

www.motorfinanceonline.com

"Lee Puffett adds: “The hurdle to buying an EV of any age is more psychological than real for most buyers looking to make the switch from ICE to electric power.""

(Keeping in mind, though, that the article above is about actual breakdowns, and not about the various annoying niggles that require a visit to the dealer)

 

[Mactech]

"The Model Y is built on the same platform (chassis) as the Model 3,

It is a common mis-apprehension that a platform and a chassis are one and the same. They are not.
Whilst there will be common elements, they needn't contain the structure which holds one end of the car to the other.
A good description here:

What is a car platform – and is it the same as a car chassis?

 

[BTB 500]

Opinions may vary... It depends on who you're asking:

Who are 'Start Rescue' and how many customers do they have? I've never heard of them. And how have they figured out that EVs are 59% less likely to break down? Obviously they'll attend a tiny number of callouts for them because 97% or so of cars & vans on the road in the UK are ICE powered.

 

[rf065]

"Lee Puffett adds: “The hurdle to buying an EV of any age is more psychological than real for most buyers looking to make the switch from ICE to electric power.""

(Keeping in mind, though, that the article above is about actual breakdowns, and not about the various annoying niggles that require a visit to the dealer)

I cannot remember the last time I had a car mechanically breakdown, only problems I've had in the last few decades is a puncture or random electrical glitches, like blind spot/radar, wheel sensors etc.
All common to both ICE and EV's, so breakdown rates should eventually even out between both types of car. Until you get to older cars, many 20 year old ICE classics still getting used daily, will we see EV's at 20 years old still usable on original batteries?

 

[BTB 500]

As complex as it may be... an EV has significantly less moving parts than an ICE engine and automatic transmission. This is a crucial factor for any mechanical device. Software bugs and battery volatility, etc, do not change the basic principles of mechanical reliability.

But if your EV battery is dead or a software bug prevents you from charging it you won't get much consolation from the fact that the drive motor is still mechanically perfect.

Arguably every subroutine in the software or cell in the battery becomes a 'component' if you want to try and calculate end-to-end reliability for the whole vehicle.

 

[markjay]

But if your EV battery is dead or a software bug prevents you from charging it you won't get much consolation from the fact that the drive motor is still mechanically perfect.

Arguably every subroutine in the software or cell in the battery becomes a 'component' if you want to try and calculate end-to-end reliability for the whole vehicle.

My EV battery has 180 cells... I bet that there are more parts in the cylinder head of the ICE engine of your car alone.

As for software subroutines, is there a reason to assume that EVs will have more software lines than a modern ICE cars? Keeping in mind that the software in the Tesla is the brainchild of Elon Musk, and arguably there would have been just as much software in any car he designed, even if it was the Flintstones' Flintmobile....

 

[BTB 500]

My EV battery has 180 cells...

Not very typical if that's the case - there are 4,400 in a Tesla 75 kWh pack, and 7,900 in a 95 kWh one.

I bet that there are more parts in the cylinder head of the ICE engine of your car alone.

... and every one of them more robust than a Li Ion cell

As for software subroutines, is there a reason to assume that EVs will have more software lines than a modern ICE cars? Keeping in mind that the software in the Tesla is the brainchild of Elon Musk, and arguably there would have been just as much software in any car he designed, even if it was the Flintstones' Flintmobile....

I think the management of an electric powertrain (including battery monitoring & charging) will be more software-intensive than a typical ICE one. Many EVs also seem have a more complex and 'futuristic' user interface than an equivalent ICE.

 

[Dryce]

I cannot remember the last time I had a car mechanically breakdown, only problems I've had in the last few decades is a puncture or random electrical glitches, like blind spot/radar, wheel sensors etc.

I think this sort of sums up the situation with ICE drivetrains these days. Even though they have become more complex (sensors, injectors, more transmission ratios) the manufacturer have them pretty much nailed. The bits which get silly are silly - so sticking a timing chain at the back of an engine - which means a minor failure can become a major cost. But on the whole purchaser of a new vehicle expecting to run it for several years and up to say 100K miles really doesn't expect to have any issues.

 

[clk320x]

This thread just goes round and round.

 

[markjay]

I think the management of an electric powertrain (including battery monitoring & charging) will be more software-intensive than a typical ICE one. Many EVs also seem have a more complex and 'futuristic' user interface than an equivalent ICE.

I doubt that ICE engine management and emissions control systems management and transmission management are any simpler than EV battery charging management.

And, my IONIQ 5 has the standard Hyundai Gen5W infotainment system that can be found on all their higher trim level cars - EV, Hybrid, and ICE.

I have to disagree that EVs are fundamentally more complicated than ICE - it's just that over the past 100 we got used to ICE and feel that know it well, and so we tend to have more confidence in the old technology, as opposed to EV tech that - for most people - is an unknown quantity and they just don't trust what they are not familiar with. In time, as more people actually get first hand experience with EVs, the prejudice will go away.

 

[markjay]

I think this sort of sums up the situation with ICE drivetrains these days. Even though they have become more complex (sensors, injectors, more transmission ratios) the manufacturer have them pretty much nailed. The bits which get silly are silly - so sticking a timing chain at the back of an engine - which means a minor failure can become a major cost. But on the whole purchaser of a new vehicle expecting to run it for several years and up to say 100K miles really doesn't expect to have any issues.

I had a timing belt break and kill the engine, a new engine was required (1.6L Diesel in a Ford Escort). I had the timing belt jump a tooth and was told I was lucky that the engine could still be saved (2.5L V6 in a Vauxhall Omega). I had a blown head gasket - twice - on the same car - because the main component in Italian alloy is play-doh (1.8L DOHC in an Alfetta). I drove a C180K with the chocolate camshaft sprockets but luckily didn't reach the mileage where the engine goes pop. And that's just me - other members will tell their tales of engine trouble. There's nothing reliable about ICE cars, and the manufacturers didn’t get it "pretty much nailed". We just got so used to the idea that complex mechanical devices break from time to time, that we think nothing of it. But when a piece of software code fails on an EV - it's "Whooha, stop press, these things are unreliable".