The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

20

I'm guessing that may have been a factor in the excellent quote (compared to a 17 year old). But who knows!

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I'm guessing that may have been a factor in the excellent quote (compared to a 17 year old). But who knows!

Female and 20 will be more favourable than 17 and male, that’s for sure!

 

[ChipChop]

So you lifted it from the Auto Express article? That wasn’t Euro NCAP who said that. Sloppy journalism, I’d say as Tom Jervis from Auto Express didn’t make it clear that it was ETSC who said that in their News, and it was picked up by Auto Express and a few other websites.

“Wide differences” in safety of driver assistance systems says Euro NCAP

Euro NCAP has put five new cars with Level 2 assisted driving features to the test against its latest protocols and found wide differences in manufacturers’ implementation of the technology. Euro NCAP’…

etsc.eu

You are incorrect. The Auto Express article is quoting Euro NCAP not the ETSC. The ETSC article includes a link to Euro NCAP's findings. You must have missed that or not read the ETSC article.

Euro NCAP did a press release the day before the ETSC article you cite. In that press release a Euro NCAP technical manager states... "In this critical scenario, the system effectively switches off steering support after a prolonged period of inactivity whilst maintaining speed control – leaving an unresponsive driver to his or her fate."

Euro NCAP releases Assisted Highway Driving Gradings for Five Popular Car Models | Euro NCAP

Euro NCAP tests Assisted Driving systems in five popular car models, revealing major differences in how manufacturers implement this growing technology.

www.euroncap.com

Interesting also to note Euro NCAP comments on the BYD Atto3 "speed assistance system did not interpret road signs correctly". Instead of using consumers as free beta testers maybe manufacturers should hold fire on unreliable tech until it functions 100%.

 

[markjay]

....a Euro NCAP technical manager states... "In this critical scenario, the system effectively switches off steering support after a prolonged period of inactivity whilst maintaining speed control – leaving an unresponsive driver to his or her fate."...

Very poor implementation of a driver aid system, by all accounts.

However, the discussion regarding BYD ATTO 3 Euro NCAP rating started from the question of whether new cars with modren tech are potentially less safe than older car without sophisticated tech.

And, so, my question is, again: in what way will an older car with traditional cruise control be any safer in similar circumstances?

To my mind, the correct way of describing the situation with the BYD ATTO 3 Euro NCAP results, is that they are disappointing because modern cars with clever tech are much safer than older cars, but this particular model is missing out on the opportunity to improve on driver and occupants safety, compared to older less sophisticated cars.

But, ultimately, overall, the BYD ATTO 3 (and any other modern car with clever active safety systems) is safer than older cars with little or no driver aid technology.

 

[markjay]

....Instead of using consumers as free beta testers maybe manufacturers should hold fire on unreliable tech until it functions 100%.

Hmm... but that precisely how the richest man on earth made his $300bn (or thereabouts) fortune over the past 15 years - you go tell him that he got it all wrong

 

[ChipChop]

Very poor implementation of a driver aid system, by all accounts.

However, the discussion regarding BYD ATTO 3 Euro NCAP rating started from the question of whether new cars with modren tech are potentially less safe than older car without sophisticated tech.

And, so, my question is, again: in what way will an older car with traditional cruise control be any safer in similar circumstances?

To my mind, the correct way of describing the situation with the BYD ATTO 3 Euro NCAP results, is that they are disappointing because modern cars with clever tech are much safer than older cars, but this particular model is missing out on the opportunity to improve on driver and occupants safety, compared to older less sophisticated cars.

But, ultimately, overall, the BYD ATTO 3 (and any other modern car with clever active safety systems) is safer than older cars with little or no driver aid technology.

Fascinating terminology. Describing tech that does not function as intended as "sophisticated" and "clever" would on the face of it appear to be pure spin. For example it is more accurate surely to describe the BYD Atto 3's speed assistance system which cannot interpret road signs correctly as unsophisticated and daft, no?

 

[markjay]

Fascinating terminology. Describing tech that does not function as intended as "sophisticated" and "clever" would on the face of it appear to be pure spin. For example it is more accurate surely to describe the BYD Atto 3's speed assistance system which cannot interpret road signs correctly as unsophisticated and daft, no?

Be it as it may... the BYD ATTO 3 is still at least as safe - or safer - than older cars.

The notion that older cars are safer is pure nonsense.

 

[clk320x]

The notion that older cars are safer is pure nonsense.

100000%

 

[Dryce]

Both cars felt inside as expected - basic, low-cost materials, but well put together and decent fit and finish.

I don't anything anyone expects luxury from a Hyundai or a VW (with the exception of the now extinct Phaeton). If I wanted MB EQC or EQE luxury, I would look at Genesis (upmarket Hyundai) or Audi (upmarket VW).

My comment was that they feel cheap.

It wasn't to say that they are poor quality.

But the cars themselves are not that cheap (unless you maybe factor in the tax subsidies?).

Sit in a Hyundai Tucson and it feels less cheap than an Ioniq. You can spec up an Ioniq some better stuff - to an extent - but buy it as a package and you get more performance and .... less efficient alloys ........... and lower range. Doh!

So yes - we have the MB models which feel a lot lot nicer inside - but then they are even more tragically expensive. And the irony is that the Hyundai drivetrain is probably better.

So I think this is one aspect where EVs have kind of gone wrong. It's a mixture of design and marketing failure at the detail and thought level. The marketplace is flawed as a result.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You are incorrect. The Auto Express article is quoting Euro NCAP not the ETSC. The ETSC article includes a link to Euro NCAP's findings. You must have missed that or not read the ETSC article.

Thank you for pointing that out, sure enough I had missed the embedded link to a Euro NCAP press release with the wording ending “fate”. I

Interesting though as the wording of the press release on the BYD Atto 3 specifically - and released on the same day through Euro NCAP Newsroom - doesn’t feature any of those comments, nor does the actual report.

“BYD ATTO 3
Adaptive Cruise Control

The BYD Atto 3 provides modest levels of driver engagement and vehicle assistance. However, it is in the area of safety backup and, specifically, the lack of action which is taken in case of an unresponsive driver, that the car performs poorly. Overall, the system is Not Recommended for highway assistance.

Images and datasheet of the 2024 BYD ATTO 3 Assisted Driving tests.”

Source:

BYD ATTO 3 - Euro NCAP 2024 Assisted Driving Results - Not Recommended grading

BYD ATTO 3Adaptive Cruise Control The BYD Atto 3 provides modest levels of driver engagement and vehicle assistance. However, it is in the area of safety backup and, specifically, the lack of...

news.euroncap.com

There’s a completely different tone of voice to the two press releases and the Atto 3 report itself; this, combined with the interesting timing - releasing it more than two years after the test - is curious to say the least.

Interesting also to note Euro NCAP comments on the BYD Atto3 "speed assistance system did not interpret road signs correctly".

The speed limit recognition is relatively poor but this was not the reason for the “not recommended” status, whilst far from ideal it was the zero score unresponsive driver intervention, that led to the “not recommended status”.

The Euro NCAP report does not make the car dangerous as implied, the Atto 3 is still safer with it’s driver assistance systems active, than an Atto 3 with it’s driver assistance systems inactive, or the car without the best driver assistance systems inactive, or a car without driver assistance at all.

If I am ever unfortunate enough to become unresponsive at the wheel then I would much rather that happen in an Atto 3 with driver assistance systems active, than any car without them. Not as good as the tiny minority which represent the very best, but better than most cars on the road.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I get to drive quite a few different cars in my side hustle and on the quality front.... you will have to go a long way...EV or ICE... to find anything nastier inside than the current MG range. Horrid hard scratchy plastics, no nice tactile feeling stuff even at the touch points... which is poor. The phrase "cheap and nasty" might have been coined for those cars.
Just my opinion and I know a few on here have them and seem happy.....but if I was buying an EV it would not be one of them. Reliability is also becoming an issue on the Mg4 EV too now apparently....lots on Google. Pity as they look OK from the outside.

 

[markjay]

...You can spec up an Ioniq some better stuff - to an extent - but buy it as a package and you get more performance and .... less efficient alloys ........... and lower range. Doh!...

I have the top spec of the IONIQ 5 (called Ultimate), and the only quality-related element that is different inside the cabin is leather seats instead of cloth. The rest - dashboard, door cards, roof lining, floor mats - is exactly the same materials and the same quality as the entry level model.

My Suzuki Vitara is also top-spec (called SZ5), and, equally, the materials and build quality inside the cabin are the same as on the entry level model.

Again, I wasn't expecting luxury in a Hyundai or a Suzuki. I was expecting durability and quality fitting, and I wasn't disappointed.

You might say that 'it feels cheap', but I would argue that it only feels that way against whatever expectations that you may had.

If the look and feel of the cabin of the IONIQ 5 or ID.4 are not to your liking, then you should simply look at upper-market brands instead. It's no different to ICE cars, really.

 

[Pontoneer]

I’m certainly no expert on Teslas but briefly looking at those links, one had a replacement motor (not a battery) and another one had a 12v battery replaced (they had the main battery pack repaired it seems?)

Again the average mileage on these you link to is quite high, which means that they would have saved a significant amount in fuel and other running costs too. Noted that one with over 300k miles has free charging also.

Strong residuals too

What would a ten year old MB with 300k miles have cost in fuel and maintenance costs? And what would the residual value be now at that mileage?

Noted the free VED over ten years too.

Interesting though

A lot of high mileage cars are company cars , so the driver wouldn’t be paying for fuel or servicing . I have ran my personal cars for many years with mileage allowances for doing so , and even with my 500SEL , my costs were more than covered .

Most of my cars are significantly more than 10 years old , though on occasion have been much less .

 

[SmartAmg]

I get to drive quite a few different cars in my side hustle and on the quality front.... you will have to go a long way...EV or ICE... to find anything nastier inside than the current MG range. Horrid hard scratchy plastics, no nice tactile feeling stuff even at the touch points... which is poor. The phrase "cheap and nasty" might have been coined for those cars.
Just my opinion and I know a few on here have them and seem happy.....but if I was buying an EV it would not be one of them. Reliability is also becoming an issue on the Mg4 EV too now apparently....lots on Google. Pity as they look OK from the outside.

Obviously I'm gonna, disagree. As I've got an MG4 X Power. Had it about 4 months and love it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the interior at all. Not had one squeak or rattle (so far). Agree on the reliability issue on some cars. But as I say
mine's been flawless (so far). But as you say, it's just your opinion.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That's very good, can I ask how old she was at the time though?

I just remembered, that premium for my daughter even includes business use! When I say she added everything she literally did!

 

[ALFAitalia]

Fair enough....I was not actually referring to rattles...not lived with one to know about that....just the quality of the materials. Ive driven a few because we have an MG dealer in Bognor i do the odd job for. I've seen it mentioned in many road tests too. MG must have listened because apparently the 2025 ones and the MG5 are rather better in this area.
Anyway.. I'm off to Cornwall in Tesla now ... also shite inside....but at least on the MG the exterior panel gaps and exterior trim line up and it only cost a fraction of the S!

 

[grober]

When discussing safety its important to distinguish between [a]active and [p] passive safety.
[a ]is about avoiding accidents and [p] about surviving them.
The big advance in [p] in modern cars in comparison to the cars of the early 90's is the development of side impact protection-side /curtain airbags etc? A GOOD EXAMPLE IS THE OLD SAAB 95 EXCELLENT IN ITS DAY FOR FRONTAL IMPACT BUT WOULD FAIL TODAYS SIDE IMPACT TESTS

 

[SmartAmg]

All these safety features on modern cars does make me laugh. And we know it's all to do with getting the 5 stars on NCAP. To be slightly fair to the car companies, I know they are being forced into it. You don't think for one minute, manufacturers, give a shit about you do ya. It's all about sales. Simple's.
I've driven for a long time, as no doubt a lot of you have. With no fancy safety features at all. And never had a crash.
Now take one safety feature in particular LKA (lane keep assist) I've read quite a few stories about oversensitive LKA trying it's best to put you into a hedge/ditch etc.
Or worse still into oncoming traffic. My point is, that's supposed to be an improvement in safety. Is it? And don't get me started on insurance prices. With all these safety features nowadays, insurance should be cheaper, but it certainly ain't.

 

[markjay]

All these safety features on modern cars does make me laugh. And we know it's all to do with getting the 5 stars on NCAP. To be slightly fair to the car companies, I know they are being forced into it. You don't think for one minute, manufacturers, give a shit about you do ya. It's all about sales. Simple's.
I've driven for a long time, as no doubt a lot of you have. With no fancy safety features at all. And never had a crash.
Now take one safety feature in particular LKA (lane keep assist) I've read quite a few stories about oversensitive LKA trying it's best to put you into a hedge/ditch etc.
Or worse still into oncoming traffic. My point is, that's supposed to be an improvement in safety. Is it? And don't get me started on insurance prices. With all these safety features nowadays, insurance should be cheaper, but it certainly ain't.

Its not just about how careful a driver you arem. A radar-based Collision Avoidance system (automatic braking), when mandatory, will save your ar$e - literally, as it will prevent other drivers from rear-ending you when you're stopped at the lights. How can this be anything other than a good thing?

 

[SmartAmg]

Its not just about how careful a driver you arem. A radar-based Collision Avoidance system (automatic braking), when mandatory, will save your ar$e - literally, as it will prevent other drivers from rear-ending you when you're stopped at the lights. How can this be anything other than a good thing?

Of course they are a good thing. I'm just saying I've never had an accident in a lot of years of driving, without all the new fancy safety devices. Maybe I've just been, lucky!