The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

What do you do after a week though?

Imagine if it only needed charging once a month…?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I'm happy to call myself a 'niche market' and feel that criticising someone's choice of car is akin to criticising their partner.
They weren't meant for you!

The words of a sage

Having a foot in both camps - and having experience of driving both - helps to view things objectively and from more than one perspective.

Like you I enjoy the merits of both ICE and EV, I’m just far less excessive than you

 

[Mactech]

The words of a sage

Having a foot in both camps - and having experience of driving both - helps to view things objectively and from more than one perspective.

Like you I enjoy the merits of both ICE and EV, I’m just far less excessive than you

Unless we consider number of cars currently owned
I've seen the Astranomical number of cars outside Dazzler towers....

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Unless we consider number of cars currently owned
I've seen the Astranomical number of cars outside Dazzler towers....

Oi, I resemble that remark!

 

[Bellow]

A fully loaded cargo/container ship can average 20 nautical miles per hour and can travel 576 miles per gallon of fuel per ton of cargo......
So container/cargo ships are super efficient ways of moving stuff around. What other way could you move a ton of stuff around the globe at 576mpg!!

Multiply that by the tonnage and then again by how many sailings and the CO2 output is huge. Contrast that with building vehicles on the same continent/country they will sell in, transported by (very fuel efficient) rail.

 

[Will]

Multiply that by the tonnage and then again by how many sailings and the CO2 output is huge. Contrast that with building vehicles on the same continent/country they will sell in, transported by (very fuel efficient) rail.

Where do all the raw materials and components come from though?

How do the workforce get to work?

Do they live in cold areas driving ICE vehicles to commute - it all adds up!

 

[Will]

I didn't really think you did. Just the way it was worded I think.

No, but in the What Makes A Good Winter Car thread, my first item was a good heater. Up here, that matters!

I can't argue with you - or claim that I've seen EV drivers togged up in coat, hat, scarf and gloves - only reports of it on the 'net. Does it happen?

Not for everyone though. Those who cannot charge at home or have to vacate chargers as soon as the recharging is done won't be so fortunate. Admittedly their plight is no worse than ICE but if an ICE driver chooses to start the engine to assist thawing, it won't impact significantly on range. The same isn't true for the EV driver unconnected to a charging point.

Do you think that your circumstances (particularly cold winters and inability to charge at home) are representative of the majority of the population, or are they a relatively unusual/unlikely scenario for most?

I am sure that your requirements are at odds with what most others need. Should these requirements for a very small niche of the population dictate policy for what the majority should be doing, or should most people be encouraged to make the right decisions based on their circumstances?

My thoughts are:

- Most vehicles spend the majority of the time parked up

- Most people don’t travel very long distances regularly, let alone daily

- Most people could charge a vehicle relatively easily, and a very good proportion should be able to charge at home now or in the future

- Most people who drive EVs are generally happy with them

- Most of the drawbacks with EVs are seen as a larger issue to those who don’t use them, than those that do

- Most of the drawbacks with ICE vehicles seem to be overlooked by those who use them

- A lot of people are generally resistant to change, but soon get over it. Eg smoking bans, sales of creosote, old fashioned light bulbs, high-wattage vacuum cleaners, original recipe Irn-Bru (sugar tax!) and other such things in life. Times change and you have to move with the times.

Many (all?) of the members on here with EVs will have experienced both ICE vehicles and EVs and can offer real world feedback on their experiences - what they’re like to life with - charging, driving, reliability, range, performance etc. The same cannot be said for ICE vehicle users who have limited or no experience of EV use or ownership.

I jump in whatever car I need to use and just drive. Having said that, I needed to stand out in the cold for a few minutes pumping petrol into one car yesterday evening which meant stopping on a journey that I wouldn’t have had to, had I been driving an EV. Likewise when it has been icy, I have had to wait for several minutes to defrost before beginning my journey - not exactly ideal.

It’s okay though, I can live with it. Same as you get used to topping up oil, paying for spark plugs, air filters, cam belts, oil filter and oil changes, gaskets and seals, exhausts, turnos, injectors and fuel pumps, coil packs and catalytic converters, starter motors, clutches/gearboxes (and gearbox servicing and repairs), plus the usual sensors, electrical issues and the occasional engine surgery when things go wrong or wear out - head rebuilds, head gaskets or worse if they break when owning or using an ICE vehicle. Not that these things are as big of an issue as they sound when you mention them in writing online (no one would buy/drive a car if you worried about what could go wrong!)

But that’s okay because most of those things above, people are used to, and accept them as normal - just look at the various threads that appear on the forum every day

 

[Bellow]

Where do all the raw materials and components come from though?

Kinda depends on what you're building. Continue with EVs and yes, expect to be shipping rare materials thousands of miles either as finished article or raw materials. Commit to carbon neutral fuels and ICE can utilise low grade easily available metals - much of it recycled - available closer to home. I don't recall the USA buying steel from China to build its railroads.

 

[BIGDOG]

Kinda depends on what you're building. Continue with EVs and yes, expect to be shipping rare materials thousands of miles either as finished article or raw materials. Commit to carbon neutral fuels and ICE can utilise low grade easily available metals - much of it recycled - available closer to home. I don't recall the USA buying steel from China to build its railroads.

Was it commercially available?

 

[Bellow]

Do you think that your circumstances (particularly cold winters and inability to charge at home) are representative of the majority of the population, or are they a relatively unusual/unlikely scenario for most?

I've already answered that.

- Most people could charge a vehicle relatively easily, and a very good proportion should be able to charge at home now or in the future

Really? How so for residents in tower blocks (to pick the most obviously intractable housing - but there are plenty others)?

- Most people who drive EVs are generally happy with them

Early adopters usually are.

- Most of the drawbacks with EVs are seen as a larger issue to those who don’t use them, than those that do

And the reason those people don't use them might just be because of the drawbacks? Thing is, the uptake of EVs is supposed to be further progressed than it actually is. Clearly there is a large cohort who cannot (or plain refuse to - their right to choose) to embrace EVs. Addressing their concerns (if even possible) will yield better results than gaslighting them into believing they are Luddites incapable of change - which is all too common.

- Most of the drawbacks with ICE vehicles seem to be overlooked by those who use them

For them ICE compromises are acceptable but EV compromises are not.

 

[BTB 500]

What do you do after a week though?

Erm ... I charge it! But I keep an eye on the charge level (I have this on the main screen), so I can pick a good time over the course of a few days. I'm retired so don't really have a fixed daily routine.

Imagine if it only needed charging once a month…?

Only charging for an hour or so a month would be even better

 

[markjay]

Perhaps. We know that small ICE cars can be perfectly viable as reliable daily drivers for 15-20 years or more if doing modest mileages. We don't know whether the same will be true of small EVs (given that Li cells degrade with age as well as with charge cycles).

Yes, but in terms of availability and affordability,
I don't think that the age is relevant, only the price.

If a small ICE car depreciates to (say) £1,000 over 15 years, and an EV depreciates to the same value over 10 years, in either case there will be a £1,000 car available.

If fact, if EVs depreciate much faster than ICE cars, then it's good news for second hand car buyers because their money will buy them a much younger EV compared an ICE car.

The only scenario where this wouldn't work is if depreciation of EVs is slow and then they reach 'cliff edge' obsolescence, but this is an impossible scenario - I.e. if a certain model of EV is known to 'die' at a certain age, then one year earlier it will already be worth next to nothing, etc. EV deprivation may prove to be steep, but it will still be a slope gradually going down to zero ('car no longer usable').

 

[markjay]

How do you demist/defrost the windows?

You put your woolly hat and scarf on, then wind down all the windows... how else?

 

[markjay]

How so for residents in tower blocks (to pick the most obviously intractable housing - but there are plenty others)?

Where I live, there are lamppost chargers, so there's a charger roughly every 3 parking bays.

The number of flats or floors in the building is irrelevant because people don't take their cars into their flats... the only thing that counts is the number of parking bays in the street - as long as there's a decent ratio of chargers to parking bays, it makes no difference how high the building is.

Of course, all new buildings will have private parking (typically underground), and then the parking area is private and it's down to the Landlord and tenants to decide how many charging point they are installing (in theory it could be a charger per parking slot, but someone will have to pick up the cost).

But, in short, high rise or low rise doesn't make a difference, only the number of parking spots matters.

 

[Bellow]

Where I live, there are lamppost chargers, so there's a charger roughly every 3 parking bays.

The number of flats or floors in the building is irrelevant because people don't take their cars into their flats... the only thing that counts is the number of parking bays in the street - as long as there's a decent ratio of chargers to parking bays, it makes no difference how high the building is.

Of course, all new buildings will have private parking (typically underground), and then the parking area is private and it's down to the Landlord and tenants to decide how many charging point they are installing (in theory it could be a charger per parking slot, but someone will have to pick up the cost).

But, in short, high rise or low rise doesn't make a difference, only the number of parking spots matters.

You have quoted a post that was a direct response to an assertion that ''Most people could charge a vehicle relatively easily, and a very good proportion should be able to charge at home now or in the future''.
It is obvious to anyone with eyes that there are certain residential premises that will never achieve provision for home charging - and it isn't only multi-storey buildings.

 

[BTB 500]

Yes, but in terms of availability and affordability,
I don't think that the age is relevant, only the price.

If a small ICE car depreciates to (say) £1,000 over 15 years, and an EV depreciates to the same value over 10 years, in either case there will be a £1,000 car available.

If fact, if EVs depreciate much faster than ICE cars, then it's good news for second hand car buyers because their money will buy them a much younger EV compared an ICE car.

The only scenario where this wouldn't work is if depreciation of EVs is slow and then they reach 'cliff edge' obsolescence, but this is an impossible scenario - I.e. if a certain model of EV is known to 'die' at a certain age, then one year earlier it will already be worth next to nothing, etc. EV deprivation may prove to be steep, but it will still be a slope gradually going down to zero ('car no longer usable').

I suppose if all goes to plan by the time current small EVs are 10+ years old there won't be many (any?) small ICEs left anyway, in which case it's all a bit academic. Don't know if anyone is making small pure ICEs any more? There are hybrids (Fiat are busy converting the 500e into one of course), but I'm not sure those will be a great option as they get older.

 

[Will]

Kinda depends on what you're building. Continue with EVs and yes, expect to be shipping rare materials thousands of miles either as finished article or raw materials. Commit to carbon neutral fuels and ICE can utilise low grade easily available metals - much of it recycled - available closer to home. I don't recall the USA buying steel from China to build its railroads.

I think it’s worth thinking about how things currently stand - I’m fairly sure that for a number of years, more and more components and raw materials used in all manufacturing, including cars (both ICE and EV) will be sourced from all over the globe. And specifically where tech is concerned, or cost is a consideration, then many manufacturers will be looking to the far east for supply.

Hence the question of efficiency of shipping entire modern and energy efficient vehicles from far away could not be as inefficient as you suggested.