The EV fact thread

[Will]

I did - I have a Garmin watch that only needs charging every 5 days or so instead

How long do watches with a 20 hour or so battery life take for a full charge??

Honest answer, I literally have no idea - which is about the best answer anyone could hope for! Battery life has never been an issue for me, and neither has the charging time.

So the take away from that is - it works, and fits perfectly with my usage pattern.

I think the battery on mine lasts a couple of days, but I just pop it on charge when I don’t need to wear it and put it on when I do. Works for me, and I’ve never had to give it a second thought

 

[Bellow]

I’ve said it many times. You and your situation is unique and quite extreme relative to the average. If you answer those questions from the perspective of the average person in the UK, it’s quite different.

I'm not so sure it is so unique. Not for anyone living here or any cold rural setting. Even in the village, the types of houses aren't immediately amenable to home charging.

PS If people want n your area make sure they never run out of fuel, thwy’d probably make sure that they never run out of charge also.

Fuel stations are more plentiful, quicker to use, and always available. Keeping on top of battery SOC isn't so easy. And, it adds one more hassle when there's likely enough other stuff to contend with. It's hard to relay just how much extra hassle prolonged periods of cold weather (such as now) create. Never more so than when it impinges on our cars and driving.

PPS The engine will still be running as long as it’s not a breakdown sour to internal component failure, fuel related, ignition related, etc.

It'll be a puncture. It always is!

 

[Will]

It's a known fact. Are you disputing that using heating in an EV reduces its range?

Absolutely not - and I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise.

Just the question was whether or not this had been an issue for you in a practical sense? I don’t think it is or has been a real problem for the majority of users. I suspect it’s seen as more of a problem by non-EV drivers than people who have/do use them.

It also helps that most EVs can be pre-conditioned whilst plugged in, allowing the car to be de-iced and the cabin pre-heated to a suitable temperature ready for departure if required. So less impact on range than with an ICE vehicle that would need to be left idling to defrost and warm up prior ro departure.

All of this is also more relevant on shorter journeys of course - who wants to waste time sitting in a freezing cold car waiting for the windscreen to clear, whilst the engine is pumping out fumes?

 

[ChipChop]

My list was a list of topics covered in MBClub threads which run and run rather than a list of things which must proceed at all/any cost. We all view things from our own perspective and you viewed the list from yours.

As I’ve said before I always enjoy and learn much from your posts, as you illuminate topics from a perspective that is completely different to my own.

These subjects run and run because they are plainly contentious. They are contentious because there is little to no evidence of cost V benefit analysis being carried out to prior there implementation.

Our own government imposing UK industry destroying ZEV 2030/2035 rules for example. Good for the PRC and Elon Musk (thanks to carbon offsetting) bad for the UK.

 

[markjay]

I agree. One of the reasons I am sceptical about AI. An enormous amount of energy to stick a celebrity's face on a porn actor's body... Nobody cares about that waste though.

Driving to see your mistress, or to the local brothel, is equally a complete waste of good petrol. But once you make technology available for the masses, you can't really control how it will be used. Every technology has good sides and bad sided. It's inevitable.

I think you'll find that when the choice is an inch of extra rear leg room vs a larger tank, the easily demonstrated in the showroom leg room wins. This is possible due to the ICE range already being good enough.

Funnily, in spite of the loss of boot depth, EVs have the advantage of a flat floor inside the car due to the lack of transmission or exhaust tunnel.

Range is already good enough. CO2 reduction has been the driver of improved fuel efficiency. Alas, the methods to control the other pollutants have been found wanting.

I've often wondered why the same efficiency improving methods haven't been applied to ICE as well as EV. Adequate range and quick refuelling are at least part of it.

'Green' doesn't really sell big time, it's a niche market (and regardless of whether something is in fact actually better for the environment or not). 'Frugal' is a market that grows only when oil prices goes up. Manufacturers generally make improvements that don't help them sell cars, only if forced to do so by legislation or financial penalties/incentives.

At the point of use I don't dispute EVs are more efficient in their energy conversion. Larger picture? Where vehicles are home grown (ie, before the Western car industry goes belly up - it's already happening) but become imports from China? That's a hell of a lot of global shipping - which thus far has been difficult to decarbonise - emissions to account for.

I find it hard to believe that the Chinese would not have tried to take over the ICE car market, had they believed that the future is ICE cars. I think that what happened is that they decided to simply skip the ICE phase altogether - which they probably view as obsolete technology in a declining market (or, to use jargon, 'melting ice cube') - and go straight to EV tech. EVs are also simpler to make, which makes dipping into the ICE market for a short-term gain even less attractive.

Additionally, a quarter of all new cars sold in the UK are Japanese or Korean brands, which means that even if no Chinese car is ever sold in the UK, the ecological challenges of long-distance transportation remains. You could well argue that some of these changes were met but building some of these cars in the UK, and, as discussed before, there's no reason why this will not be the same with Chinese brands.

 

[Bellow]

Absolutely not - and I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise.

I didn't really think you did. Just the way it was worded I think.

Just the question was whether or not this had been an issue for you in a practical sense?

No, but in the What Makes A Good Winter Car thread, my first item was a good heater. Up here, that matters!

I don’t think it is or has been a real problem for the majority of users. I suspect it’s seen as more of a problem by non-EV drivers than people who have/do use them.

I can't argue with you - or claim that I've seen EV drivers togged up in coat, hat, scarf and gloves - only reports of it on the 'net. Does it happen?

It also helps that most EVs can be pre-conditioned whilst plugged in, allowing the car to be de-iced and the cabin pre-heated to a suitable temperature ready for departure if required. So less impact on range than with an ICE vehicle that would need to be left idling to defrost and warm up prior ro departure.

All of this is also more relevant on shorter journeys of course - who wants to waste time sitting in a freezing cold car waiting for the windscreen to clear, whilst the engine is pumping out fumes?

Not for everyone though. Those who cannot charge at home or have to vacate chargers as soon as the recharging is done won't be so fortunate. Admittedly their plight is no worse than ICE but if an ICE driver chooses to start the engine to assist thawing, it won't impact significantly on range. The same isn't true for the EV driver unconnected to a charging point.

 

[markjay]

These subjects run and run because they are plainly contentious. They are contentious because there is little to no evidence of cost V benefit analysis being carried out to prior there implementation.

Our own government imposing UK industry destroying ZEV 2030/2035 rules for example. Good for the PRC and Elon Musk (thanks to carbon offsetting) bad for the UK.

I think you are making the incorrect assumption that if 'cost V benefit analysis' would have been carried-out, then the government would have made different policies.

Government are notorious for implementing ideology without any regard to facts or evidence (other than making them up when pressed on the issue). Just look at how Trump is completely overturning almost all of Biden's policies - and neither man had any evidence whatsoever that whet they're doing is good, can work, or makes economic sense.

 

[markjay]

I didn't really think you did. Just the way it was worded I think.

No, but in the What Makes A Good Winter Car thread, my first item was a good heater. Up here, that matters!

I can't argue with you - or claim that I've seen EV drivers togged up in coat, hat, scarf and gloves - only reports of it on the 'net. Does it happen?

Not for everyone though. Those who cannot charge at home or have to vacate chargers as soon as the recharging is done won't be so fortunate. Admittedly their plight is no worse than ICE but if an ICE driver chooses to start the engine to assist thawing, it won't impact significantly on range. The same isn't true for the EV driver unconnected to a charging point.

I have no doubt that penny-pinching misers frugal-minded people will be delighted that with their new EVs they can now actually reduce the cost of motoring but turning down the heater and save money, a step up from ICE cars of old where scandalously you had to pay for 'heating fuel' whether you wanted to heat the cabin or not

 

[Bellow]

Funnily, in spite of the loss of boot depth, EVs have the advantage of a flat floor inside the car due to the lack of transmission or exhaust tunnel.

My ICE has a flat floor. One that can take 8' x 4' sheets lying flat. Not many cars can do that.

'Green' doesn't really sell big time, it's a niche market (and regardless of whether something is in fact actually better for the environment or not). 'Frugal' is a market that grows only when oil prices goes up. Manufacturers generally make improvements that don't help them sell cars, only if forced to do so by legislation or financial penalties/incentives.

Yep, bigger alloys will always scupper efficiency.

I find it hard to believe that the Chinese would not have tried to take over the ICE car market, had they believed that the future is ICE cars. I think that what happened is that they decided to simply skip the ICE phase altogether - which they probably view as obsolete technology in a declining market (or, to use jargon, 'melting ice cube') - and go straight to EV tech. EVs are also simpler to make, which makes dipping into the ICE market for a short-term gain even less attractive.

I see it less that China chose to bypass ICE, more that it is only now that its manufacturing prowess is capable of building motor cars. That, and on account of having done so much manufacturing for Western companies, it now knows how to and predominately that knowledge is in the domain of EVs. It's choice to pursue Western markets as good as precludes ICE so yes, no point in going down that road. What we don't as yet know is how successful it will be in that endeavour and if it quits it, if will it turn to ICE production for the parts of the world not committing to electrification.

Additionally, a quarter of all new cars sold in the UK are Japanese or Korean brands, which means that even if no Chinese car is ever sold in the UK, the ecological challenges of long-distance transportation remains. You could well argue that some of these changes were met but building some of these cars in the UK, and, as discussed before, there's no reason why this will not be the same with Chinese brands.

True, but worth noting that a study by Amnesty International found the Koreans to be lagging behind Western OEMs in a number of environmental and labour criteria. If it has to improve on those aspects, there will I assume, be a cost.

 

[Bellow]

I have no doubt that penny-pinching misers frugal-minded people will be delighted that with their new EVs they can now actually reduce the cost of motoring

Moot point dependent on charging costs and depreciation - and the former a significant variable for different users.

but turning down the heater and save money, a step up from ICE cars of old where scandalously you had to pay for 'heating fuel' whether you wanted to heat the cabin or not

If you are going to persist with that argument then it has to be countered by an EV needing a 20% bigger battery for winter than is required in summer. We've already seen it in discussions where a prospective EV purchaser sites their required range then chooses the car on its winter range. And its additional size, weight, and cost cannot be turned down in the summer. I've yet to see the ICE buyer say they need/want 200hp so better make that 240hp for winter.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I find it hard to believe that the Chinese would not have tried to take over the ICE car market, had they believed that the future is ICE cars. I think that what happened is that they decided to simply skip the ICE phase altogether - which they probably view as obsolete technology in a declining market (or, to use jargon, 'melting ice cube') - and go straight to EV tech. EVs are also simpler to make, which makes dipping into the ICE market for a short-term gain even less attractive.

You’re right, new entrants to any market - or “disrupter” as we like to call them in recent years - are successful largely because they capitalise upon the very things which hold back the established players in the market.

The cost associated with operating a network of branches and invest in establishing and is secure digital banking is huge. New entrants don’t need to, so they can offer the same services at lower cost. Legacies are expensive and slow you down.

It’s also the reason that public infrastructure is sometimes better in relatively poorer countries because it’s newer. They don’t have the cost of maintaining, repairing and replacing the legacy versions and go straight to “latest”.

I agree, that had China tried then they would have cracked ICE then it would just take longer. China is a manufacturing powerhouse on an unprecedented scale, and so it’s only a matter of time before car assembly started in China for export.

They’ve manufactured and exported the components which go into cars which are assembled in the West for many years. They now make a few more and bolt them all together in China, hardly an unfathomable leap in thinking

It’s often said that China doesn’t have the engineering ability to manufacture engines. Poppycock. They do have the ability, and they do manufacture engines at scale for the domestic market and for export.

Chinese car manufacturers have focused on the domestic market in China and the Government has proactively pushed EVs as makes it easier to sustain rapid growth as the infrastructure requirements are quicker and easier than ICE.

Western car manufacturers have known for many years that this was coming but I think the pace has taken them by surprise, and so have been caught napping. Too little too late. When they realised their legacy means that they are too slow to react.

I doubt many people are a fan of the Chinese government but it’s difficult to argue with their effectivess. I doubt they haver about building high speed rail links, nuclear power stations, or anything else important for prosperity.

It seems to be working well for them at the moment. Just as it did for the American, the British, the Romans, and so on, and each of those powerhouses would have treated their own and others in a questionable manner.

Slight drift there

 

[Will]

Your use situation is highly unusual, I don’t know of an EV which could even get close to meeting your requirements. That said you don't need to switch to an EV, so the fact that there isn’t a suitable EV doesn’t my matter in the short and medium term. In the long term, much can and will change.

Whilst your situation is unique, there are plenty of others - like @BTB 500 - who have a very unusual set of requirements and which also cannot be satisfied with an EV. But again, that’s OK because they can carry on using their preferred ICE vehicles too, for many many years to come.

However there are many many many more people who could drive an EV without any meaningful compromise, but don’t and that’s OK too because they don't have to. They just don’t need to come up with a 1,001 reasons why not. It’s OK to just prefer driving an ICE car, that suffices.

@ALFAitalia is very open about the fact that he’d never want an EV, but that’s not because of the reasons others often mention, it’s because he just prefers ICE and doesn’t have to switch. I’m the same, I choose to drive ICE because I love driving them, however I will probably get another EV soon.

The reason being that I believe that if those who can do, then those who can’t don’t have to. I can, and so to protect my right to drive ICE for fun - and protect other’s rights to choose to for whichever reason, then I will probably buy an EV for munching miles, and keep my ICE for pleasure.

^^Has to be one of the most sensible posts on this thread in recent weeks!

 

[BTB 500]

Clearly an issue that will resolve itself over time?

Perhaps. We know that small ICE cars can be perfectly viable as reliable daily drivers for 15-20 years or more if doing modest mileages. We don't know whether the same will be true of small EVs (given that Li cells degrade with age as well as with charge cycles).

 

[BTB 500]

I've been driving my old Ford Ranger for two years without any heating

How do you demist/defrost the windows?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Moot point dependent on charging costs and depreciation - and the former a significant variable for different users.

If you are going to persist with that argument then it has to be countered by an EV needing a 20% bigger battery for winter than is required in summer. We've already seen it in discussions where a prospective EV purchaser sites their required range then chooses the car on its winter range. And its additional size, weight, and cost cannot be turned down in the summer. I've yet to see the ICE buyer say they need/want 200hp so better make that 240hp for winter.

Most people don’t get close enough to their EV’s range to worry about the battery needing to be 20% bigger. The people who worry about it seem to be the people who don’t drive an EV and won’t drive an EV.

Using our Fiat 500e as an example because the range is as short as it gets, unless you do more 80 miles per day every day then the fact that the range drops in winter makes no difference to the way they use the car.

Not many do more miles, and of those not many choose the one of the smallest battery capacity EVs on the market to do it in. Just like they don’t choose ICE Fiat 500s. Most EVs have a much bigger battery pack and a much longer range.

 

[ALFAitalia]

At the point of use I don't dispute EVs are more efficient in their energy conversion. Larger picture? Where vehicles are home grown (ie, before the Western car industry goes belly up - it's already happening) but become imports from China? That's a hell of a lot of global shipping - which thus far has been difficult to decarbonise - emissions to account for.

A fully loaded cargo/container ship can average 20 nautical miles per hour and can travel 576 miles per gallon of fuel per ton of cargo......
So container/cargo ships are super efficient ways of moving stuff around. What other way could you move a ton of stuff around the globe at 576mpg!!

 

[BTB 500]

Honest answer, I literally have no idea - which is about the best answer anyone could hope for! Battery life has never been an issue for me, and neither has the charging time.

So the take away from that is - it works, and fits perfectly with my usage pattern.

I think the battery on mine lasts a couple of days, but I just pop it on charge when I don’t need to wear it and put it on when I do. Works for me, and I’ve never had to give it a second thought

Perfect for you then

I use mine to track heart rate, steps, respiration, stress, sleep, 'body battery' level (derived from the other data) ... as well as alarms/reminders, notifications from my phone, etc. (and even occasionally telling the time ). So I aim to wear it 24x7. Officially the battery life is 5 days but with minor tweaks to the screen brightness & timeout, vibration level, etc. it lasts about a week.

 

[Will]

Of course there are many other factors, and the same is true for EVs too. The actual impact of the heating an EV in winter gets lost in a number of other variables in much the same way.

You know as well as I do that the heat from ICE is actually waste and so unnecessarily carries that inefficiency all year round, and only becomes helpful in cold weather. An EV being the opposite.

I’m sure that an ICE will still use more fuel in winter than in summer.

Off the top of my head:

- Cold start enrichment on petrol - will take longer in winter with a colder engine of course to bring up to operating temperature. Do the glow plugs on diesels have to pre-heat for longer too - they do seem to crank for longer when cold.

- Thicker oil - cranking a cold engine is going to need more energy. And surely stirring heavy oil and pumping it will require more energy too - has to come from increased fuel usage.

- Defrosting/warming the cabin - unless you have a petrol pump at home then you’re starting off with a reduced range due to fuel wasted whilst idling to warm up

And in summer, cooling down an inefficient ICE engine will use more fuel. Viscous fans create drag - and electric fans will necessitate the alternator to work harder - no such thing as a free lunch

Of course - this is all theoretical. Sometimes ageing ICE powered vehicles do struggle either in extremes of cold and hot (breakdowns in the depths of winter and peaks of summer, especially stuck in traffic)

The honest answer is that for all but a minority of people these are non-issues. But the convenience of starting the morning commute 5-10 minutes earlier due to a ready-to-go vehicle is tangible to most

 

[Will]

Perfect for you then

I use mine to track heart rate, steps, respiration, stress, sleep, 'body battery' level (derived from the other data) ... as well as alarms/reminders, notifications from my phone, etc. (and even occasionally telling the time ). So I aim to wear it 24x7. Officially the battery life is 5 days but with minor tweaks to the screen brightness & timeout, vibration level, etc. it lasts about a week.

What do you do after a week though?

Imagine if it only needed charging once a month…?

 

[Mactech]

Your use situation is highly unusual, I don’t know of an EV which could even get close to meeting your requirements. That said you don't need to switch to an EV, so the fact that there isn’t a suitable EV doesn’t my matter in the short and medium term. In the long term, much can and will change.

Whilst your situation is unique, there are plenty of others - like @BTB 500 - who have a very unusual set of requirements and which also cannot be satisfied with an EV. But again, that’s OK because they can carry on using their preferred ICE vehicles too, for many many years to come.

However there are many many many more people who could drive an EV without any meaningful compromise, but don’t and that’s OK too because they don't have to. They just don’t need to come up with a 1,001 reasons why not. It’s OK to just prefer driving an ICE car, that suffices.

@ALFAitalia is very open about the fact that he’d never want an EV, but that’s not because of the reasons others often mention, it’s because he just prefers ICE and doesn’t have to switch. I’m the same, I choose to drive ICE because I love driving them, however I will probably get another EV soon.

The reason being that I believe that if those who can do, then those who can’t don’t have to. I can, and so to protect my right to drive ICE for fun - and protect other’s rights to choose to for whichever reason, then I will probably buy an EV for munching miles, and keep my ICE for pleasure.

Whatever the rights and wrongs are of ICE vs EV, in having both, I have a foot in both camps and can see benefits and drawbacks of both.
I also will admit that my choices could in no way be called rational (excessive maybe! Cheaper transport is available..) but those vehicles fulfil my requirements very well. Nobody needs to celebrate what they have done with vehicles, but in my particular case, they do align perfectly with my intrigue with technology and the fact I have a house with some surplus energy.
I'm happy to call myself a 'niche market' and feel that criticising someone's choice of car is akin to criticising their partner.
They weren't meant for you!