The EV fact thread

[Will]

No not really. If the latest and greatest thing is demonstrably better than the thing it seeks to replace people will switch.

Flogging a dead horse however is more difficult.

I’m sure when sliced bread first came out, the change didn’t happen overnight.

Same as the horse and cart vs powered transport and whatever else you can think of.

382,000 electric cars were sold last year by mistake then or is that not a fact?

 

[markjay]

Either way private buyers are not buying new EV's.

So is it 'one in ten' or 'zero in ten'...... ?

 

[ChipChop]

Blimey, that’s pretty good that can’t be far off the 2024 target. Considering the effect of pushing back from 20230 to 2035x then that seems surprisingly good to me.

Fines for manufacturers who have not sold enough ZEV's is good? In what way?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Then practioners of change management are using the incorrect word. The word "irrational" already has meaning.

Which meaning do you prefer? I’ve always believed irrational to mean not reasonable, not following logic.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Fines for manufacturers who have not sold enough ZEV's is good? In what way?

Where did that come from?

 

[Will]

Either way private buyers are not buying new EV's.

FWIW, I don’t think there are many private buyers who ‘buy’ new cars in general anyway - most people who can afford to run new cars take them on secured finance packages and swap them every few years - leases/PCPs etc.

People who pay for cars to own outright are probably a little more cautious with their money. I couldn’t afford to run the sorts of cars I like bought new

I think what you’re trying for say is EVs are great value for business users. Which isn’t the same as what you posted!

 

[markjay]

FWIW, I don’t think there are many private buyers who ‘buy’ new cars in general anyway - most people who can afford to run new cars take them on secured finance packages and swap them every few years - leases/PCPs etc.

People who pay for cars to own outright are probably a little more cautious with their money. I couldn’t afford to run the sorts of cars I like bought new

I think what you’re trying for say is EVs are great value for business users. Which isn’t the same as what you posted!

Just checked, around 90% of new cars in UK are bought with finance. I imagine that the remaining 10% are almost all private buyers.

 

[markjay]

Fines for manufacturers who have not sold enough ZEV's is good? In what way?

Manufacturers do not get fined for not selling enough EVs.... they get fined for selling too many ICE cars!

 

[ChipChop]

I’m sure when sliced bread first came out, the change didn’t happen overnight.

Same as the horse and cart vs powered transport and whatever else you can think of.

382,000 electric cars were sold last year by mistake then or is that not a fact?

Depend on if you had a toaster.

Where did that come from?

2024's ZEV target is 22%. So not achieved. However "the nuances of the ZEV mandate mean that manufacturers also have a CO2 target as well as a target on the number of vehicles sold which is based on their emissions in 2021. If a manufacturer beats their CO2 target (i.e. has lower emissions than in 2021) they can convert the amount they beat it the CO2 target by towards ZEV compliance. Preliminary data from the DfT suggests that when this is taken into account, the car market as a whole will have achieved the 22 per cent ZEV Mandate target.

 

[Will]

Depend on if you had a toaster.

I’m guessing you make a coal fire each morning for breakfast?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Either way private buyers are not buying new EV's.

Exactly. Like Ford, Vauxhall, Nissan, Renault, Citroen, VW, Mercedes, and BMW before them. You'd be mad to.

There's an enormous, unique tax break for new EV purchase. Much larger than on ICE because of the tax break you give them.

By buying used, or simply less than a year old used, the private buyer can piggy back the VAT / Corporation tax discount, and save herself 20-25% on pre-registered, and 50% on three year old / sub-30k miles.

Just in the same way as she always used to on Fiesta, MINI, Nissan, VW and so on.

£13k for a MINI Cooper electric with 20k on the clock? Rude not to

 

[markjay]

Exactly. Like Ford, Vauxhall, Nissan, Renault, Citroen, VW, Mercedes, and BMW before them. You'd be mad to.

There's an enormous, unique tax break for new car purchase.

By buying used, or simply less than a year old used, the private buyer can piggy back the VAT / Corporation tax discount, and save herself 20-25% on pre-registered, and 50% on three year old / sub-30k miles.

Just in the same way as she always used to on Fiesta, MINI, Nissan, VW and so on.

Private purchase of EVs in different countries seems to be directly linked to the tax incentives provided by the respective governments. In Norway they're buying Teslas like their going out of fashion. In the UK, the government chose to focus on the business sector - a strategy that worked well with Diesels in the past.

As a private buyer, you get very little by way of tax incentive - there is (or used to be?) a £5,000 grant for cars costing £35,000 or less - not sure if that's still the case? Either way, the government can easily change that by - for example - reducing the VAT on private sale of new EVs, etc.

 

[Will]

Exactly. Like Ford, Vauxhall, Nissan, Renault, Citroen, VW, Mercedes, and BMW before them. You'd be mad to.

There's an enormous, unique tax break for new EV purchase. Much larger than on ICE because of the tax break you give them.

By buying used, or simply less than a year old used, the private buyer can piggy back the VAT / Corporation tax discount, and save herself 20-25% on pre-registered, and 50% on three year old / sub-30k miles.

Just in the same way as she always used to on Fiesta, MINI, Nissan, VW and so on.

£13k for a MINI Cooper electric with 20k on the clock? Rude not to

Ahh but EVs are too expensive/too cheap/not available used for private buyers etc etc…

 

[BIGDOG]

ChipChop is the only user name i have ever had on this forum. My name is also not Matt.

Righto Matthew, or was it Trojan horse?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

FWIW, I don’t think there are many private buyers who ‘buy’ new cars in general anyway - most people who can afford to run new cars take them on secured finance packages and swap them every few years - leases/PCPs etc.

People who pay for cars to own outright are probably a little more cautious with their money. I couldn’t afford to run the sorts of cars I like bought new

I think what you’re trying for say is EVs are great value for business users. Which isn’t the same as what you posted!

When I read statistics about how many private sales there are - from memory I think it may have been 40% of sales, it really surprises me.

If I exclude the very wealthy, I struggle to think of many people I know in real life who buy or finance brand new and unregistered cars with their own money. They’re out there but a very small proportion of the people I know.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Depend on if you had a toaster.

2024's ZEV target is 22%. So not achieved. However "the nuances of the ZEV mandate mean that manufacturers also have a CO2 target as well as a target on the number of vehicles sold which is based on their emissions in 2021. If a manufacturer beats their CO2 target (i.e. has lower emissions than in 2021) they can convert the amount they beat it the CO2 target by towards ZEV compliance. Preliminary data from the DfT suggests that when this is taken into account, the car market as a whole will have achieved the 22 per cent ZEV Mandate target.

I perhaps wasn’t being clear, when I asked “where did that come from?” I wasn’t asking you elaborate,. I was asking how you made the giant leap from me posting that the number of EV sales last year must be pretty close to the government target, to you implying that I believe that fining car manufacturers is a good thing.

That’s a giant leap that even Neil Armstrong would be proud of!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Private purchase of EVs in different countries seems to be directly linked to the tax incentives provided by the respective governments. In Norway they're buying Teslas like their going out of fashion. In the UK, the government chose to focus on the business sector - a strategy that worked well with Diesels in the past.

As a private buyer, you get very little by way of tax incentive - there is (or used to be?) a £5,000 grant for cars costing £35,000 or less - not sure if that's still the case? Either way, the government can easily change that by - for example - reducing the VAT on private sale of new EVs, etc.

Exactly my point. The government's driving EV's into the hands of private buyers via companies and business discounts.

So I'll be able to pick up your lovely Ioniq 5 Ultimate shortly for less than £20k, after the tax man and your company accounts have taken the hit on that initial depreciation. Works for me.

(Although I did also like the six year old CL500 that I bought for 80% less than list price, thanks to the same company car / VAT / Corporation tax fandango, "back in the day.")

 

[BTB 500]

Blimey, that’s pretty good that can’t be far off the 2024 target. Considering the effect of pushing back from 20230 to 2035x then that seems surprisingly good to me.

ZEV mandate target was 22%, so they needed to sell almost 47,000 more. I think it took a fair few special deals etc. towards the end plus pre-registering to get where they did.

Target for vans was 10%, so they were nearly 15,000 short there.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Ahh but EVs are too expensive/too cheap/not available used for private buyers etc etc…

Yes, I mean "who'd want a BMW i3 like my Vicar's for £14k"

 

[ChipChop]

I perhaps wasn’t being clear, when I asked “where did that come from?” I wasn’t asking you elaborate,. I was asking how you made the giant leap from me posting that the number of EV sales last year must be pretty close to the government target, to you implying that I believe that fining car manufacturers is a good thing.

That’s a giant leap that even Neil Armstrong would be proud of!

Close but no cigar. Hardly a positive imo as the fines for not meeting targets are common knowledge. Saved by nuances within the ZEV mandate it appears. Lets see what happens his year with 28% as the target to meet.