The EV fact thread

[GrahamT]

 

[Mactech]

View attachment 167129

Apparently, in the States it's a musk have car.....but it's links hand drive. Links to other vehicles are available.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I would assume that cars pre-registered (and later sold to private buyers) will show as 'sold without finance' and will therefore be included in the 10%.

Nope, I think they're sold to finance organisations, and then resold. MB Finance, or some similar financing organisation. It's unlikely that they'd go onto the dealers books.

 

[Will]

Have those accusing others of being change averse made any change in their own life to reduce their carbon footprint (other than buying an EV which until it is charged form 100% renewably sourced electricity doesn't contribute to CO2 reduction)? Changed diet? Changed to fly less or not at all? Changed anything it all? If you're going to talk the talk...

Well multiple wrongs don’t make a right do they - or should we just do whatever we like and shrug our shoulders or something?

I walk wherever possible. Have an EV for short trips that require a car instead of pumping out fumes in and around town. Very few air miles to be fair. And make changes to lifestyle where possible.

But I don’t claim that the main selling point of an EV relates to CO2 output either. So not sure where that came from.

Which are your favourite benefits of an EV btw, I don’t think I’ve noticed you mention any?

 

[Bellow]

But I don’t claim that the main selling point of an EV relates to CO2 output either. So not sure where that came from.

If not that, why is taxpayers' money being thrown at subsidising them into the market?

 

[Dryce]

But I don’t claim that the main selling point of an EV relates to CO2 output either. So not sure where that came from.

That is the motivation of the policymakers to to try and force the market. It has since become a bit confused because of the NOx issue that has been driving the ULEZ (or LEZ in some parts).

Thing is - as you point out you can adapt and save sensibly in in other ways.

 

[markjay]

If not that, why is taxpayers' money being thrown at subsidising them into the market?

Carrot and Stick to shape behaviours.

Why do we have massive taxation on fuel? On Tobacco? On Alcohol? To reduce consumption. That's the Stick.

Tax incentive are the Carrot.

The same applies to low-VED for cars with low CO2 emissions, and (until recently) also exemption from the London Congestion Charge.

But both are simply two sides on the same coin.

I.e. are we punishing polluting car drivers by imposing ULEZ charges? Or are we rewarding drivers of cleaner cars by exempting them? It's the same thing, ultimately.

 

[Bellow]

Carrot and Stick to shape behaviours.

Why do we have massive taxation on fuel? On Tobacco? On Alcohol? To reduce consumption. That's the Stick.

Tax incentive are the Carrot.

The same applies to low-VED for cars with low CO2 emissions, and (until recently) also exemption from the London Congestion Charge.

But both are simply two sides on the same coin.

I.e. are we punishing polluting car drivers by imposing ULEZ charges? Or are we rewarding drivers of cleaner cars by exempting them? It's the same thing, ultimately.

But doesn't address why tax is being used to incentivise.
The reason - though some appear to have forgotten or never knew - is CO2 reduction to meet the Net Zero obligation. That and no other reason. And, no other reason could warrant taxpayers' money incentivising EV promotion. A shame it's missing its objective. But who knew a plug-in hybrid with a tax advantage would never be acquainted with mains electricity during its three year company lease or that gas fired electricity generation would be pre-warming EVs at one of the grid's peak demand periods?

 

[Will]

If not that, why is taxpayers' money being thrown at subsidising them into the market?

Cleaner air in urban environments.

Flexibility in fuel source - electricity can be generated and sourced in numerous ways - currently petrol and diesel vehicles are not (and we’ve seen how they can work out at times)

Plus they’re quieter and more efficient. Short journeys and congestion (which make up a huge amount of everyday traffic) are ideally suited to EVs.

That’s my take on it - if they’re better in terms of CO2 output over the typical lifespan then great. But that’s not the reason why I bought one.

 

[markjay]

But doesn't address why tax is being used to incentivise.
The reason - though some appear to have forgotten or never knew - is CO2 reduction to meet the Net Zero obligation. That and no other reason. And, no other reason could warrant taxpayers' money incentivising EV promotion. A shame it's missing its objective. But who knew a plug-in hybrid with a tax advantage would never be acquainted with mains electricity during its three year company lease or that gas fired electricity generation would be pre-warming EVs at one of the grid's peak demand periods?

I am not sure what you're asking. Obviously, this sort of tax (or tax break) is generic and only has an overall statistical effect.

It's the same old discussion regarding VED - a small engined low-emissions car doing tens of thousands of miles a year will be outputting much more CO2 than a V8 that's only driven rarely, and yet the V8 will pay more VED. Etc.

Or, if you drive with a roof rack or a roof box, your actual CO2 emissions will be higher than the formal figures, and yet you still be paying the same low VED.

That's the nature of the beast. It's not specific for EVs.

 

[Bellow]

I am not sure what you're asking. Obviously, this sort of tax (or tax break) is generic and only has an overall statistical effect.

Tax breaks are only justified to achieve an objective (reduced CO2 emissions in this case) and the behaviour of those enjoying the tax breaks is contrary to the objective and intrudes on the overall stability of energy supply (electricity and gas) to domestic and business premises.

 

[Dryce]

I am not sure what you're asking. Obviously, this sort of tax (or tax break) is generic and only has an overall statistical effect.

The business tax benefits are not generic.

They set up an artificial market.

The claim that the cars bought via these subsidies filter through to private buyers is skewed because the types of cars that are being made and sold new are skewed.

It could have been done differently - and we might well have had better balance of product and pricing that would have generated a faster shift in the market (in terms of products and pricing). I think leaving the market to itself would not be an answer - car manufacturers can be quite perverse - their anti-customer fetish for touch screen controls is an example. The carrots and sticks have not been handled well and perhaps made things a lot worse than they should be.

 

[Petrol Pete]

Apparently, Elon is upset that folks have started calling Teslas swasticars.

I would imagine in reality Musk doesn't give a "$hit. His massive ego might take a small hit , but his wealth and influence in the White House remains (some might say ) dangerously robust.

 

[markjay]

The business tax benefits are not generic.

They set up an artificial market.

The claim that the cars bought via these subsidies filter through to private buyers is skewed because the types of cars that are being made and sold new are skewed.

I agree. Many people here in London looking for ULEZ compliant cars discover that the market is flooded with non-compliant Diesel cars, thanks to the 'Golden Era' of Diesels, while petrol cars are harder to find. Post-2015, the Diesels are ULEZ compliant, but still, if you really want a petrol car, you'll have to accept that the choice is considerably smaller.

Cars with Diesel engines are more expensive to buy new, and with Diesel oil being more expensive than petrol, it isn't much cheaper to run. I seriously doubt that we would have had so many Diesel cars sold if it wasn't for the tax breaks for business customers at the time.

 

[ChipChop]

I agree. Many people here in London looking for ULEZ compliant cars discover that the market is flooded with non-compliant Diesel cars, thanks to the 'Golden Era' of Diesels, while petrol cars are harder to find. Post-2015, the Diesels are ULEZ compliant, but still, if you really want a petrol car, you'll have to accept that the choice is considerably smaller.

Cars with Diesel engines are more expensive to buy new, and with Diesel oil being more expensive than petrol, it isn't much cheaper to run. I seriously doubt that we would have had so many Diesel cars sold if it wasn't for the tax breaks for business customers at the time.

The UK car market is not flooded with non compliant diesel cars at all. Autotrader UK currently features ads for almost 100,000 more used petrol cars for sale than used diesels.

 

[markjay]

The UK car market is not flooded with non compliant diesel cars at all. Autotrader UK currently features ads for almost 100,000 more used petrol cars for sale than used diesels.

That's misleading, because - firstly - we're obviously talking about exec cars, because the smaller models typically sold directly to private owners who had no interest in buying a more expensive Diesel (the difference in VED wasn't significant enough to justify it), - then - it only applies to a certain period when Diesel cars were flying out the door to business customers, and so anyone looking for younger cars will find a good selection of both.

 

[markjay]

...If you want to discuss the trials and tribulations of us city dwelles, then you should know that I've tried several mobile wheel repairers so far, and they all refuse to come out unless I have off-street parking, which I don't. Mobile wheel repair and mobile smart repair are the real pain in the backside, not charging - charging is no bother whatsoever. Next topic please....

Success! Finally found a repairer with a positive mindset who was willing to get the alloy wheels repaired at the kerbside outside my office. He came today and did an excellent job. Diamond cut in the back of his van using a portable power generator. Now I just need to try and avoid damaging the wheels until the car goes back to the finance provider in a few months' time.... Next, the start repair for the paintwork.

 

[ChipChop]

That's misleading, because - firstly - we're obviously talking about exec cars, because the smaller models typically sold directly to private owners who had no interest in buying a more expensive Diesel (the difference in VED wasn't significant enough to justify it), - then - it only applies to a certain period when Diesel cars were flying out the door to business customers, and so anyone looking for younger cars will find a good selection of both.

Misleading is saying that the UK used car market is ...

I agree. Many people here in London looking for ULEZ compliant cars discover that the market is flooded with non-compliant Diesel cars, thanks to the 'Golden Era' of Diesels, while petrol cars are harder to find. Post-2015, the Diesels are ULEZ compliant, but still, if you really want a petrol car, you'll have to accept that the choice is considerably smaller.

Patently not the case. Even looking for cars manufactured up to and including 2015, so majority pre euro 6 diesels, there are still significantly more used petrol cars (66,500) for sale in the UK than diesels (43,700).

 

[Will]

Success! Finally found a repairer with a positive mindset who was willing to get the alloy wheels repaired at the kerbside outside my office. He came today and did an excellent job. Diamond cut in the back of his van using a portable power generator. Now I just need to try and avoid damaging the wheels until the car goes back to the finance provider in a few months' time.... Next, the start repair for the paintwork.

Have you worked out what you’re replacing it with?

 

[markjay]

Have you worked out what you’re replacing it with?

No... still 6 months to go. We'll see.