The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

I very rarely tend to walk (or stand) on roads with heavy congestion and queuing traffic, however last night I had to walk past cars parked outside a school, with parents inside waiting for their children to return from a school trip.

It was late and relatively cold and so every single car I passed was parked with their engine running. The air was cold and still and so everything coming out the tailpipes lingered in the air, and it was a very very pleasant experience.

I’ve never experienced anything like it before, and it reminded me why reducing tailpipes emissions is a good thing. Those fortunate to not have to deal with it find it easy to be dismissive, but it must be awful to deal with it regularly.

I worked in London for 37 years, walking along major roads to/from rail or tube stations in the rush hour every day. 40 years ago (when I was on the Marylebone Road) it could be pretty unpleasant in summer, but of course no vehicles had cats/dpfs/etc. back then. In later years (based on the South Bank and then on the Strand) exhaust emissions weren't something I was personally aware of at all, let alone being awful. Most ICE vehicles on the road now are relatively inoffensive IMHO. Don't get me wrong - reducing emissions is obviously a 'good thing', and we're all different so some people will be more sensitive to them than others (particularly those with health issues of course).

One of my pet hates is people using small generators nearby while we're camping, and I've certainly been aware of the exhaust fumes from those (as well as the noise)! But they are quite different to cars (no cats. etc., and not tested annually).

 

[BTB 500]

You should mention that to the battery recyclers who have started up all over the world.

It's more the people who buy from them who should be aware. When I last looked none of the companies in the US that 'repaired' Tesla batteries provided any warranty (unless you paid for it in the form of an ongoing 'support' charge). Why do you think all the car manufacturers will only replace battery units with new ones, rather than getting them 'fixed'?

Does the same logic apply to faulty engines, gearboxes and starter motors? If one element's failed, the whole thing's is faulty so shouldn't be reconditioned?

Of course not. But with relatively cheap mass-produced components like glowplugs quite a few people do actually have all of them replaced once one fails.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It's more the people who buy from them who should be aware. When I last looked none of the companies in the US that 'repaired' Tesla batteries provided any warranty (unless you paid for it in the form of an ongoing 'support' charge). Why do you think all the car manufacturers will only replace battery units with new ones, rather than getting them 'fixed'?

Of course not. But with relatively cheap mass-produced components like glowplugs quite a few people do actually have all of them replaced once one fails.

Exactly, so Mercedes won't repair an ICE engine or gearbox, it'll "give" you a new one, so that it can give you an original warranty on it.

Which means that it's for others to recondition and repair engines, gearboxes and starter motors when they inevitably fair.

Will you contact all these battery recycling firms to tell them that their business model is flawed and that they can't fit recycled batteries into older vehicles, and that MIT are wrong to think that vehicle batteries will be recycled into static storage units for commercial and home use? Units that could be continuously attached to the grid, pulling down energy when its cheap and then quickly transferring it into an EV or the home, when it's needed.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You may have never experienced anything like this before because leaving your engine idling while stationary is against the law in the UK. Section 42 road traffic act 1988.

Driving at 71 mph on the motorway contravenes Section 89 RTRA 1988 too, but I occasionally see people do it. Bu99ers.

 

[ChipChop]

Driving at 71 mph on the motorway contravenes Section 89 RTRA 1988 too, but I occasionally see people do it. Bu99ers.

Would you be in favour of all vehicles being factory restricted to the 70mph UK national speed limit and vehicle accelleration also being restricted? Doing so would certainly improve emissions. Driving and accelerating quickly means more energy is consumed and more Co2 is emitted, at the tailpipe or at the powerplant.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Why do you think all the car manufacturers will only replace battery units with new ones, rather than getting them 'fixed'?

Unless I’ve misunderstood something, in his posts below @markjay is suggesting that Hyundai are replacing one specific module rather than the whole battery pack containing 30 modules, which suggests that at least Hyundai don’t replace the whole battery pack.

Whether those removed modules are repaired and reused for warranty repair or not isn’t clear. Unless it’s changed very recently, Mercedes main dealers don’t repair internal component failures in gearboxes, suspension struts, steering racks, etc, instead they replace them. However those faulty components are reconditioned by specialists and sold through the main dealer network with a warranty.

After three and a half years of trouble-free motoring... the IONIQ 5 is - for the first time - back with the dealer for a warranty repair.

The symptoms are that charging stops sooner than expected, with the instrument cluster shows 100% battery. This is blatantly incorrect, as can be seen from the amount of kWh charged on the payment receipt from the public charger.

The Hyundai forums say that this is the result of cell imbalance. The battery may just need to be rebalanced, or the reason could be a faulty cell.

I am aware that the recommendation is to charge the car to 100% at least once a month, which will balance the cells, and I have been doing that ever since I got the car. So it's odd thar the car should have this problem (unless a cell has failed).

In the meantime, the dealer carried out a health check and sent me photos showing that the windscreen wipers need replacing, and the the rear discs also need replacing because they are... corroded (presumably due to low use).

The good news:

- Hyunday provide 5 years warranty for the car and 8 years warranty for the battery.

- My business lease includes 'full maintenance pack' which covers all services and all repairs, including windscreen wipers and brakes.

- At no point prior to - or during - the booking process has it been suggested to me that I may need to incur the cost of diagnostic 'if the issue turns out to be not covered by warranty'

I did enjoy the Mercedes much more than I do the Hyundai. But the extended warranty and no-BS service are certainly a plus for the Hyundai.

Regarding the battery, if a cell indeed failed, then apparently they don't replace individual cells, instead they replace 'modules'. My car has 30 battery modules (no idea how many cells in a module). The point is that I have nothing to gain from having the entire battery pack replaced - because the car is on a lease - and I imagine that replacing the entire battery pack will take longer than just replacing one module. So hopefully they can replace just one module, and hopefully they have it in stock - assuming that the issue is indeed a cell failure, obviously.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You may have never experienced anything like this before because leaving your engine idling while stationary is against the law in the UK. Section 42 road traffic act 1988.

Would you be in favour of all vehicles being restricted to 5 seconds of idling before the engine? Doing so would certainly improve emissions.

Would you be in favour of all vehicles being factory restricted to the 70mph UK national speed limit and vehicle accelleration also being restricted? Doing so would certainly improve emissions. Driving and accelerating quickly means more energy is consumed and more Co2 is emitted, at the tailpipe or at the powerplant.

No.

 

[Steveml63]

As previously mentioned though, the cells in a module (likely the entire pack) will all have come from the same manufacturer at exactly the same time ... so once one fails there's a reasonable chance that others won't be far behind. 'Fixing' by finding and replacing individual cell(s) isn't a great idea anyway because new ones will have a different internal resistance to the others (due to different age and number of cycles), so there will be a more frequent need for balancing right from the start.

Regarding balancing cells - on our Tesla Model 3 Performance, it is recommended to run the car down to a few percent charge - then slow charge it to 100%.
After this - the cells automatically rebalance and the potential range at 100% charge goes up by about 5 to 10km compared to before this exercise.
I do this every 3 months or so - to try and keep the batteries in good health

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Regarding balancing cells - on our Tesla Model 3 Performance, it is recommended to run the car down to a few percent charge - then slow charge it to 100%.
After this - the cells automatically rebalance and the potential range at 100% charge goes up by about 5 to 10km compared to before this exercise.
I do this every 3 months or so - to try and keep the batteries in good health

Interesting.

Rightly or wrongly I have always believed it to be worthwhile to periodically run all rechargeable batteries down very low, re-charging to 100% and leaving them on charge at 100% for a while longer. I also charge new batteries until 100% and leave them on charge for longer too. I suspect it’s a throwback to a particular battery chemistry but based upon your post it suggests that it may still be relevant in some cases.

 

[markjay]

Unless I’ve misunderstood something, in his posts below @markjay is suggesting that Hyundai are replacing one specific module rather than the whole battery pack containing 30 modules, which suggests that at least Hyundai don’t replace the whole battery pack.

To clarify - I hope that this is what they'll do - IF the issue is a failed cell. Have not heard back from the dealer yet, though based on the various messages that pop-up on my Hyundai app, they seem to have been working on the car yesterday and today.

 

[ChipChop]

Would you be in favour of all vehicles being restricted to 5 seconds of idling before the engine? Doing so would certainly improve emissions.


No.

Makes no sense. before the engine.....? cools down? shuts off? Either way agreed an engine that is not on has zero emissions.

Accelerating and driving quickly does not consumer more energy and therefore generate more CO2, in your opinion?

 

[ChipChop]

To clarify - I hope that this is what they'll do - IF the issue is a failed cell. Have not heard back from the dealer yet, though based on the various messages that pop-up on my Hyundai app, they seem to have been working on the car yesterday and today.

Have you not plugged your icarsoft in to find out what the problem is with your EV?

Much more work i would have thought changing a module than replacing the entire battery pack. Wonder how many book hours is it is remove, dismantle and replace one module compared to fitting a replacement battery pack? Both options mean they will probably have to change the battery coolant as well.

Still could be worse. Watched a video of an early Fiat 500e battery pack replacement and they had to remove the rear subframe. Almost as bad as putting the timing chain at the back of an ICE engine.

 

[Bellow]

Driving and accelerating quickly means more energy is consumed and more Co2 is emitted, at the tailpipe or at the powerplant.

Where are you taking this CC? Are you making the point that those who bought 2 ton EVs for their stabbed rat acceleration that recharge from electricity that is not renewably generated runs counter to the CO2 reduction mission and thus negates the whole point of EVs?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Still could be worse. Watched a video of an early Fiat 500e battery pack replacement and they had to remove the rear subframe. Almost as bad as putting the timing chain at the back of an ICE engine.

I’ve heard of rear subframes having to be dropped to replace brake lines, fuel tanks and the like, so not surprised that it would be required to replace a battery pack. Thankfully all are relatively infrequent jobs.

 

[markjay]

Have you not plugged your icarsoft in to find out what the problem is with your EV?

Much more work i would have thought changing a module than replacing the entire battery pack. Wonder how many book hours is it is remove, dismantle and replace one module compared to fitting a replacment battery pack? Both options mean they will probably have to change the battery coolant as well.

Still could be worse. Watched a video of an early Fiat 500e battery pack replacement and they had to remove the rear subframe. Almost as bad as putting the timing chain at the back of an ICE engine.

The Hyundai forums did recommend the CarScanner Pro app with OBDII BT dongle that apparently can 'interogate' the individual battery cells, but the dealer had availability the following day and so there was no time for me to order the scanner hardware. They also mentioned that there may be a discrepancy between the SOC on the dash and the SOC that the scanner sees, which I guess would have been the case here because the dash was showing 100% while I know for fact that the battery was at best only 50% charged. No idea what's involved in changing a module, though....

 

[ChipChop]

Where are you taking this CC? Are you making the point that those who bought 2 ton EVs for their stabbed rat acceleration that recharge from electricity that is not renewably generated runs counter to the CO2 reduction mission and thus negates the whole point of EVs?

Spot on.

 

[Bellow]

Spot on.

Add in the pre-warming done at a peak demand time for the grid when it leans on gas and that some will be using inefficient 'granny cable' charging and the 'green' argument starts to look a little bogus. Knocks a hole in the amortisation of the initial build carbon footprint too.

 

[ChipChop]

The Hyundai forums did recommend the CarScanner Pro app with OBDII BT dongle that apparently can 'interogate' the individual battery cells, but the dealer had availability the following day and so there was no time for me to order the scanner hardware. They also mentioned that there may be a discrepancy between the SOC on the dash and the SOC that the scanner sees, which I guess would have been the case here because the dash was showing 100% while I know for fact that the battery was at best only 50% charged. No idea what's involved in changing a module, though....

Changing a module involves taking the battery pack apart once it is removed from underneath the car.