The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

Not really... Those who charge their EVs at home pay only 5% VAT on their domestic electricity, ans so effectively their running costs are subsidised by the taxpayer.

Which has SFA to do with who paid for your battery replacement - which is either subsequent customers or, it was already priced in, one of the reasons EVs carry a high sticker price.
If you really want to talk of the tax payer subsidising, lets look at the BIK...

 

[markjay]

Which has SFA to do with who paid for your battery replacement - which is either subsequent customers or, it was already priced in, one of the reasons EVs carry a high sticker price...

A lot of assumptions there.

Of course the price paid by consumers covers warranty repair costs, it is factored-in by the car manufacturer when calculating the RRP. Just as the interest on your mortgage includes an element of cover for all those other people who will default on their mortgage payments. Commercial organisations are not meant to be running an overall loss.

However, you assume that EV warranty repairs cost manufacturers more than ICE warranty repairs (per car made). What is this premise based on? I am not aware that manufacturers share warranty data, crucially component failure rates, let alone costs. And yes, a brand new battery pack will cost the manufacturer as much as a complete new ICE engine and transmission - but, again no one has the warranty failure rates of either.

...If you really want to talk of the tax payer subsidising, lets look at the BIK...

Absolutely. This is also why it's nigh-on impossible to find decent second-hand petrol cars - the second-hand market is flooded with Diesel cars - the effects of the Golden Age of Diesel will be with us for some years, until finally all those millions of Diesel cars bought due to low BIK will be off the road.

 

[Bellow]

A lot of assumptions there.

Is two too big a number for you? For that is as many as there are.

Of course the price paid by consumers covers warranty repair costs, it is factored-in by the car manufacturer when calculating the RRP. Just as the interest on your mortgage includes an element of cover for all those other people who will default on their mortgage payments. Commercial organisations are not meant to be running an overall loss.

However, you assume that EV warranty repairs cost manufacturers more than ICE warranty repairs (per car made). What is this premise based on? I am not aware that manufacturers share warranty data, crucially component failure rates, let alone costs. And yes, a brand new battery pack will cost the manufacturer as much as a complete new ICE engine and transmission - but, again no one has the warranty failure rates of either.

When - if ever - was an entire ICE drivetrain (engine and transmission) replaced under warranty in one hit? Never. Continue to dance on that pin head if you must.
Battery replacements (costing as much as a complete ICE drivetrain - more likely more) on the other hand are relatively common and worse, occasioned by the most trivial of events (additional to their own instability and unreliability) such as very minor accidents.

Absolutely. This is also why it's nigh-on impossible to find decent second-hand petrol cars - the second-hand market is flooded with Diesel cars - the effects of the Golden Age of Diesel will be with us for some years, until finally all those millions of Diesel cars bought due to low BIK will be off the road.

Ancient history. Back to the present and the market is similarly being flooded with EVs that are of little use to too many when they exit their leases which, by circumventing BIK tax that would be paid on ICE deprives the treasury of revenue and thus increases the need for tax to be collected elsewhere from the population as a whole. But you know all this and choose to steer the conversation to meaninglessness rather than accept that your motoring is subsidised by me and others. Next to that, what is 5% loss of VAT due to home charging? And I don't need the 'carrot and stick' lecture of taxation. The carrot has to lead to something worthwhile and subsidising business use of EVs does not deliver anything of use to the wider public.

 

[markjay]

When - if ever - was an entire ICE drivetrain (engine and transmission) replaced under warranty in one hit? Never. Continue to dance on that pin head if you must.
Battery replacements (costing as much as a complete ICE drivetrain - more likely more) on the other hand are relatively common and worse, occasioned by the most trivial of events (additional to their own instability and unreliability) such as very minor accidents.

We both studied statistics at school, I assume.... It's a question of how many ICE engines and transmissions are replacement under warranty (separately), multiplied by the cost of each, vs how many EV battery packs are replacement under warranty multiplied by the cost of each... we both know that. And we both know that there's zero data to support any theory suggesting that manufacturers incur higher warranty costs for one type of car - I.e. ICE or EV - over the other. Additionally, this is not helped by manufactures' tendency to replace complete units with new under warranty - engines, transmissions, and battery packs - rather than have them repaired.

Which has SFA to do with who paid for your battery replacement - which is either subsequent customers or, it was already priced in, one of the reasons EVs carry a high sticker price.

There's therefore no basis for the assumption that the higher RRP of EVs is wholly or partially due to the manufacturers having to incur higher warranty cost.

Ancient history. Back to the present and the market is similarly being flooded with EVs that are of little use to too many when they exit their leases which, by circumventing BIK tax that would be paid on ICE deprives the treasury of revenue and thus increases the need for tax to be collected elsewhere from the population as a whole. But you know all this and choose to steer the conversation to meaninglessness rather than accept that your motoring is subsidised by me and others. Next to that, what is 5% loss of VAT due to home charging? And I don't need the 'carrot and stick' lecture of taxation. The carrot has to lead to something worthwhile and subsidising business use of EVs does not deliver anything of use to the wider public.

I fully accept that my motoring is subsidised by you and others. You seem to think that there's no issue with it happening historically - low BIK on Diesel cars, low VED on low-CO2-emissions cars from 2001 onwards (that's 24 years now....) - and even the 5% VAT has been a factor for people home charging their Nissan Leaf or Teslas for the past 15 years. So why are people now up-in-arms about EVs? My answer is because it was never about the low BIK and the low VED etc which we had for over two decades now... it's simply about EV-bashing. Apologies if I come across blunt.

 

[markjay]

Here's a list of ICE cars that you and me and the other taxpayers have been subsiding via low VED since 2001:

My top 10 sub-100 g/km cars

Well now, the Chancellor gave us plenty to think about for company cars in his Budget. There’s extra cost – fuel goes up 3p per litre in August (proving that my sneaking suspicion aired in my last blog was, shall we say, wide of the mark). There’s stretching new company car tax targets if...

www.fleetalliance.co.uk

I don't remember anyone complaining that it is unfair? But of course, they are ICE cars, not EVs, so it's fine....

 

[markjay]

I found this on an IONIQ 5 Internet forum, posted by a member from Canada who had a similar issue to mine:

"Hyundai Canada decided to do a MODULE replacement, and NOT a full pack replacement on my car. They flew a specialized technician from Toronto to Ottawa to do the repair. Once everything had been set up, the repair only took a day. They dropped the pack, replaced the module (containing 12 cells) and sealed it up again (with new thermal paste), then tested it out."

This is a far more sensible approach, than replacing the entire battery pack due to a single dead cell (which is what Hyundai UK did to my car).

I only hope that it's a simple matter of EV manufacturers training more technicians how to safely repair high-voltage batteries.

 

[markjay]

On another note, kudos to Hyundai, I just had a look at their website, and in addition to the WLTP range figure, they have provided a series of buttons and sliders that allow you to vary the relevant parameters to see what range you might get under different conditions:

IONIQ 9 | Performance

Explore the performance of the Hyundai IONIQ 9 electric SUV, which delivers an impressive driving range of up to 620 km and charges from 10 to 80% in 24 minutes.

www.hyundai.com

You can change wheel size, turn climate control on and off, select the type of road, and change the ambient temperature.

It would be great if more manufacturers did this, rather than just quote the WLTP figure.