The EV fact thread

[markjay]

Exactly. So should the West ignore the fastest growing, most lucrative market in the world's biggest country, that could easily become the world's biggest economy within our lifetimes?

(In addition to the UN's ambition to reduce CO2 and pollution)

I don't really see how the West can sell anything electric to China, cars included.

Of course the prestige Western marques will gain a foothold and cater for the wealthy etc - but the average Chinese person will be driving a Chinese-made EV.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I meant to say that only the best examples will be sold by the franchised dealer, and at a premium price - there are simply too many cars coming off lease for the dealers to try and sell all of them. The rest of the cars will be auctioned off and bought by traders to be sold through smaller independent used car dealerships - and this is how you get a market flooded by cheap cars (for those models that were initially supplied in large numbers to business users).

Aye, so all cars initially sold to business users end up in the hands of consumers.

How is this relevant? All consumers end up getting EV's cheaper than the original headline price. Think of it as the taxpayers' gift to the EV industry.

 

[markjay]

Aye, so all cars initially sold to business users end up in the hands of consumers.

How is this relevant? All consumers end up getting EV's cheaper than the original headline price. Think of it as the taxpayers' gift to the EV industry.

Yes, but finance providers get an event better price than Joe Average does. Which is why cars that were common among business users appear to lose value fast - the perceived depreciation after 3 years is high when compared to the price that Joe Average would have paid for it new (with all subsidies etc) - but not so much when compared to what the car was actually sold for to the finance provider. This is how you get a second hand car market that is flooded by cheap 2-3 years old cars of specific models.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I don't really see how the West can sell anything electric to China, cars included.
Of course the prestige Western marques will gain a foothold and cater for the wealthy etc - but the average Chinese will be driving a Chinese-made EV.

Pardon?

Mercedes, VAG, BMW and Porsche calls Chin their most important market, accounting for one third of their global sales.

I don't know the percentages for the other brands but they'll all be substantial.

Whether this changes when 45th becomes 47th: who knows?

 

[markjay]

Pardon?

Mercedes, VAG, BMW and Porsche calls Chin their most important market, accounting for one third of their global sales.

I don't know the percentages for the other brands but they'll all be substantial.

Whether this changes when 45th becomes 47th: who knows?

There are 1.3-1.4bn Chinese people. Let's say that's 300-350m households. The top 10% of earners will comprise of 30-35m households..... that's about the size of the entire car market of many a European country. And that's what Mercedes, VAG, BMW and Porsche are competing for. The other 90% of earners will 100% drive cheap Chinese-made cars.

 

[Dryce]

I meant to say that only the best examples will be sold by the franchised dealer, and at a premium price - there are simply too many cars coming off lease for the dealers to try and sell all of them. The rest of the cars will be auctioned off and bought by traders to be sold through smaller independent used car dealerships - and this is how you get a market flooded by cheap cars (for those models that were initially supplied in large numbers to business users).

Unless things have changed in the last few years ....

AIUI the general setup for the likes of MB and BMW is that the business lease cars go back to the finance company and then on to be graded and auctioned to trade. The dealers pick them up from there. It means that you could get a crazy situation where a car is returned from say Edinburgh, transported to the Midlands for grading and auction, and then bought by a franchise chain with an outlet in Perth and transported all the way back north to Perth to be retailed as AU.

 

[Petrol Pete]

Exactly. So should the West ignore the fastest growing, most lucrative market in the world's biggest country, that could easily become the world's biggest economy within our lifetimes?

(In addition to the UN's ambition to reduce CO2 and pollution)

China ? China is very close to becoming an economic basket case . All smoke and mirrors , I have not worked there for a while , but even then all was not what it seemed.

 

[SmartAmg]

As I said, Tesla are rubbish and shouldn't be bought for that reason.

Why?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Some think people like @BTB 500 who rant on about lots of our power not being from renewables need to remember that if we got all our electricity from coal or gas and powered all the EVs with that those cars would still be creating a fraction of the carbon that all ICE running on petrol would do. Mainly because they are just so efficient compared to even the best ICE car. Modern petrol engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of no more than 50%, but most road legal cars are only about 20% to 40%. Electric cars would be over 95% efficient if it were not for charging losses....battery charging efficiency depends on the vehicle, but even allowing for that it's typically somewhere between 80% and 92%. Figures ICE can only dream of. So to keep using the source of the power as a reason not to buy one is bogus....just like all the charging nonsense when 80 percent of all charging is don't at home. If you don't like them, then you don't like them (I don't and I will never buy one!).....but at least be factually correct.

 

[BTB 500]

Estate EV's do exist, if you think something like an Ioniq 5 is big enough. (It's the size of many an estate)

Object to EV's because they're not made in the size you want yet. but not because they're electrically powered.

There are EV's around with a 250 mile range in Winter. See the way they're used in Norway which is far colder than your neck of the woods.

But not motorway range. Hyundai UK say:

With Hyundai’s cutting-edge smart tech, IONIQ 5 delivers a range up to 315 miles when equipped with the long range battery in the Premium trim.

If the manufacturer's quoted 'up to' range is 315 miles then the real-world motorway figure in winter will be a *lot* less than that. A quick Google found this test ... 153 miles at 70 mph took the battery down to 25%, the point where you'd be looking at needing a charging stop. And 195 miles to fully discharged (not recommended).

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 70 MPH Range Test In Cold Weather

We charge a 2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5 to 100% and then drive it at a constant 70-mph to see how far it will go in the InsideEVs 70-mph range test.

insideevs.com

This may not be the exact same model but it gives some idea of the impact of motorway speeds on EV range. FWIW back home on Sunday night I had a remaining range of 254 miles shown, so let's call it 600 motorway miles on a tank of unleaded.

Rates vary, as do mileage per KwH, but home charging will save you 80% of your current fuel spend. But - you will need to pay higher rates for the ... small ... amount of electricity that you put into the car when you've used the 250 miles of range that you start with each day

It's worth thinking it through.

From another quick Google it looks like the above Ioniq 5 costs around £48k. My 2019 C300 (currently on 32k miles, so not a car I'd be expecting to sell anytime soon) is perhaps worth around £21k, so it would cost me £27k or so to change and start benefiting from the lower mileage costs. 10k miles a year currently costs me about £1,600. Let's say I only ever charged my new EV at home (best case scenario), then taking your 80% figure I'd be saving £1,280 a year. Assuming I had a spare £27k knocking about to start with that would be a payback period of 21 years ...

 

[BTB 500]

Some think people like @BTB 500 who rant on about lots of our power not being from renewables

Think you're mixing me up with someone else there.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

China ? China is very close to becoming an economic basket case . All smoke and mirrors , I have not worked there for a while , but even then all was not what it seemed.

For sure. The same is said of both the USA and Europe.

Best contact the boards of. Mercedes, VAG, BMW and Porsche who call China their biggest and most important market, accounting for one third of their global sales. Tell them they’re wrong to sell their highest spec and most profitable vehicles to China. Tell them to drop a third of their volume and refocus on the home market.

Those sales numbers have been there for a decade. Not just for the car industry but for most international manufacturing and services businesses.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

But not motorway range. Hyundai UK say:


If the manufacturer's quoted 'up to' range is 315 miles then the real-world motorway figure in winter will be a *lot* less than that. A quick Google found this test ... 153 miles at 70 mph took the battery down to 25%, the point where you'd be looking at needing a charging stop. And 195 miles to fully discharged (not recommended).

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 70 MPH Range Test In Cold Weather

We charge a 2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5 to 100% and then drive it at a constant 70-mph to see how far it will go in the InsideEVs 70-mph range test.

insideevs.com

This may not be the exact same model but it gives some idea of the impact of motorway speeds on EV range. FWIW back home on Sunday night I had a remaining range of 254 miles shown, so let's call it 600 motorway miles on a tank of unleaded.



From another quick Google it looks like the above Ioniq 5 costs around £48k. My 2019 C300 (currently on 32k miles, so not a car I'd be expecting to sell anytime soon) is perhaps worth around £21k, so it would cost me £27k or so to change and start benefiting from the lower mileage costs. 10k miles a year currently costs me about £1,600. Let's say I only ever charged my new EV at home (best case scenario), then taking your 80% figure I'd be saving £1,280 a year. Assuming I had a spare £27k knocking about to start with that would be a payback period of 21 years ...

Exactly, so argue the case from the point that EVs are too new for you, or that there aren’t EVs that suit your needs. Or that they’re ugly or a bit rubbish

It’s nonsense to say that you don’t want to buy one because every time you get in a car you have to drive 360 miles in winter conditions and can’t afford a 15 minute stop to top up the charge. (While you have a pee and pick up a coffee)

When an EV that does meet your needs reaches 4-5 years old, like your C class, it will be as cheap to buy as your C300 AND it will be cheaper to run, as long as you’re charging from home and starting off most days with 300 miles of cheap fuel “in your tank.”

That’s where I stand on this. I’m a long way from buying an MB EV because they have the elegance of a potato, lumber around like Teletubbies, and can look risky for reliability - see the Porsche Taycan stories.

It’s not because I would have to stop for ten minutes to top up the charge on a 250 mile drive to Penzance, or because I’d need to use a Granny cable for a couple of nights to refill tank for the return drive. (If I didn’t want to connect it to a DC charger during a lunch)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Why?

I’ve promised not to repeat myself on this. Drove 2500 miles in one this Summer and hated every moment.

Not because of the drivetrain but because of the whole experience. Astonishingly cheap and easy to fuel, but can’t imagine why anyone would chose it over a 3 series, C class or A4

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

But not motorway range. Hyundai UK say:


If the manufacturer's quoted 'up to' range is 315 miles then the real-world motorway figure in winter will be a *lot* less than that. A quick Google found this test ... 153 miles at 70 mph took the battery down to 25%, the point where you'd be looking at needing a charging stop. And 195 miles to fully discharged (not recommended).

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 70 MPH Range Test In Cold Weather

We charge a 2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5 to 100% and then drive it at a constant 70-mph to see how far it will go in the InsideEVs 70-mph range test.

insideevs.com

This may not be the exact same model but it gives some idea of the impact of motorway speeds on EV range. FWIW back home on Sunday night I had a remaining range of 254 miles shown, so let's call it 600 motorway miles on a tank of unleaded.



From another quick Google it looks like the above Ioniq 5 costs around £48k. My 2019 C300 (currently on 32k miles, so not a car I'd be expecting to sell anytime soon) is perhaps worth around £21k, so it would cost me £27k or so to change and start benefiting from the lower mileage costs. 10k miles a year currently costs me about £1,600. Let's say I only ever charged my new EV at home (best case scenario), then taking your 80% figure I'd be saving £1,280 a year. Assuming I had a spare £27k knocking about to start with that would be a payback period of 21 years ...

Exactly, so argue the case from the point of view that you’ve got an old car and don’t want to buy a new one.

When you drive in the dead of winter you might require two fifteen minute stops because you’re driving in snow and ice. Recharging at a motorway charger is actually that fast in the worst conditions. But you know full well that most times you aren’t driving 250 miles without a break.

And if you’re averaging 70mph on UK motorways you’re breaking a lot of speed limits. Most of us Brits are averaging 50mph at best on a long journey like that, which makes the range better than the numbers you’re quoting

 

[ALFAitalia]

Think you're mixing me up with someone else there.

You are quite correct....I was referring to @Bellow 's thread. It was late!

 

[ALFAitalia]

From another quick Google it looks like the above Ioniq 5 costs around £48k. My 2019 C300 (currently on 32k miles, so not a car I'd be expecting to sell anytime soon) is perhaps worth around £21k, so it would cost me £27k or so to change and start benefiting from the lower mileage costs. 10k miles a year currently costs me about £1,600. Let's say I only ever charged my new EV at home (best case scenario), then taking your 80% figure I'd be saving £1,280 a year. Assuming I had a spare £27k knocking about to start with that would be a payback period of 21 years ...

That could well be true......but saving us money is not really what it's all about....even if that is one of the nicer benefits. It's about lowering carbon output....and the fact that they do overall (from everything from manufacture to disposal they make 50 to 60 percent of the carbon of an ICE car.
Also in your example your aregoingg from a used car to a new car....hardly a fair comparison as yourwouldd have a brand new car. Swapping to used EVI of the same value is the only way to do a direct comparison....in which case you would start saving immediately. Looking the other way, if you bought another new ICE carats a similar £48k (unless it did massively more mpg than your current one) you would NEVER reach payback......never mind 21 years! So it's saving you money whichever way you look at it.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, no more posting on pointless EV threads for me.

 

[SmartAmg]

I’ve promised not to repeat myself on this. Drove 2500 miles in one this Summer and hated every moment.

Not because of the drivetrain but because of the whole experience. Astonishingly cheap and easy to fuel, but can’t imagine why anyone would chose it over a 3 series, C class or A4

Fair enough, Mike.

 

[Noitz]

It's not going too well in the U.S. for Mercedes' new electric vehicles.

 

[molgrips]

our petrol estate car, which costs under 16p a mile on fuel

That is hugely expensive from where I am sitting. My daily driver costs under 2p.

When all of the electricity they use in both production and use is renewably generated they will be. Until then they are merely competing and not winning over ICE.

Regarding renewable energy generation it's woth looking at National Grid Live. Right now on a gloomy winter morning we are using 12% fossil fuel of our own generation.

You must also take into account that an EV uses its energy a lot more efficiently than an ICE. Even if all the electricity were generated from coal, an EV would still be much more efficient than an ICE (from memory, carbon emissions would be about 30%). When you add in the renewable energy mix in the UK te carbon emissions are far lower.

You are of course right that we need renewable energy storage, but that's exactly what EVs can deliver. Most people don't use their whole battery every day. The goal is to use smart charging, where you leave your car plugged in all the time and the charger directs surplus energy to your car when it's available; and you can use it when you need to drive which can be some time later. Most EV drivers are already on such a tariff, from Octopus it's called Intelligent Go.

As already mentioned people use their cars in different ways, and what works for one person may not work for another.

EVs CAN work for pretty much everyone, you just might have to change your expectations slightly. If ICEs had never been invented, you would be using EVs every day and not think anything of it. Likewise, a traveller from a parallel universe might marvel at how we put up with ICE because we don't have nuclear fusion powered cars.

My point is that it's all a question of perception, which can be changed. People will adapt, and we will all be better off when that happens.

What, no caravan?

As soon as I can afford to replace the CLS with a tow-capable EV I will! We are getting close. For the same as we pay on finance foe the Leaf and the CLS we could buy an Ioniq 5 long range. Since I WFH basically all the time this is an option for us.

The towing range is likely to be about half of what you get solo, maybe a little more, but I can put up with that. The biggest issue would be charging, as you would have to un-hitch to charge.