The EV fact thread

[Petrol Pete]

For sure. The same is said of both the USA and Europe.

Best contact the boards of. Mercedes, VAG, BMW and Porsche who call China their biggest and most important market, accounting for one third of their global sales. Tell them they’re wrong to sell their highest spec and most profitable vehicles to China. Tell them to drop a third of their volume and refocus on the home market.

Those sales numbers have been there for a decade. Not just for the car industry but for most international manufacturing and services businesses.

Yes , but it is not going to last.

 

[markjay]

But not motorway range. Hyundai UK say:


If the manufacturer's quoted 'up to' range is 315 miles then the real-world motorway figure in winter will be a *lot* less than that. A quick Google found this test ... 153 miles at 70 mph took the battery down to 25%, the point where you'd be looking at needing a charging stop. And 195 miles to fully discharged (not recommended).

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 70 MPH Range Test In Cold Weather

We charge a 2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5 to 100% and then drive it at a constant 70-mph to see how far it will go in the InsideEVs 70-mph range test.

insideevs.com

This may not be the exact same model but it gives some idea of the impact of motorway speeds on EV range. FWIW back home on Sunday night I had a remaining range of 254 miles shown, so let's call it 600 motorway miles on a tank of unleaded.



From another quick Google it looks like the above Ioniq 5 costs around £48k. My 2019 C300 (currently on 32k miles, so not a car I'd be expecting to sell anytime soon) is perhaps worth around £21k, so it would cost me £27k or so to change and start benefiting from the lower mileage costs. 10k miles a year currently costs me about £1,600. Let's say I only ever charged my new EV at home (best case scenario), then taking your 80% figure I'd be saving £1,280 a year. Assuming I had a spare £27k knocking about to start with that would be a payback period of 21 years ...

My IONIQ 5 has a WLTP range of 285 miles (due to the car's configuration my particular model is not at the top of the WLTP range for the IONIQ 5).

Yesterday, I drove family members to Heathrow T5 at 4am, via the M4 then M25. I charged the car to 100% before leaving hone. It was dark, cold and raining, and the car used the lights, wipers, and heating. The car showed a remaining range of 250 miles when on the motorway. However, I was unable to make 70mph due to the driving conditions, the speed was around 60-65mph.

In contrast, during the summer, when driving around town in slow traffic and with lots of regeneration braking, the car showed a remaining range of 340 miles.

So the WLTP range is only a sort of average figures. But the main issue here is that - unlike official mpg figures for ICE cars - the fluctuations are much greater and can be around ±15-20%, which is a lot.

(I should also add that the figures showing on the car's display may be inaccurate, however for the purpose of this discussion I assumed they are correct, for lack of an alternative and more accurate option)

EDIT: incidentally, ICE cars are the complete opposite: the range goes up when driving faster (due to having gears). The funny thing is that my 1.6L Suzuki which is driven mostly in town shows a range of under 300 miles when the tank is full, while the IONIQ 5 shows well above 300 miles for a full battery when driven in town. On the motorway, the trend will obviously be reversed.

 

[markjay]

It's not going too well in the U.S. for Mercedes' new electric vehicles.

View attachment 150901

Personally, I think that MB missed a trick with EVs. Too little, too late. They were sitting on the fence for far too long. For a while, their only EV was the EQC, and the first cars weren't great, both from the tech point of view and the reliability. In the luxury sector, the EQE and EQS are magnificent beasts, but being introduced in 2022 means that they have a lot of catching-up to do in order to gain market share. The smaller EQA and EQB are battling in a busy market segment against a plethora of small EVs from various manufacturers including the Korean and Chinese. MB simply didn't commit the resources early enough. Personal opinion.

 

[markjay]

I’ve promised not to repeat myself on this. Drove 2500 miles in one this Summer and hated every moment.

Not because of the drivetrain but because of the whole experience. Astonishingly cheap and easy to fuel, but can’t imagine why anyone would chose it over a 3 series, C class or A4

My two Vauxhall Omegas and two C-Class were a pleasure to own and drive. I still miss my W204. I am now driving an IONIQ 5 and recently drove a Prius rental and I can't fault either car, very very solid build quality and very well put together, very reliable and predictable on the road, but there's just no excitement.

 

[molgrips]

I'd have an EQE if I won the lottery straight away. If that doesn't happen, I will wait for an Ioniq 6 to become available in my price range.

The biggest impact on range that ICE seen by the way is standing water on motorways, not cold weather. This is the same for ICEs too.

Even then, our Ioniq EV only dropped to about 170 miles of range on motorways. The WTLP is something like 190. We could achieve 200 in summer, it would exceed the 4.8m/kWh required for the WTLP figure. That was a fantastic car in that respect, probably the lowest carbon emissions of any car on the road. I do regret not buying ours from the lease company even though it was 50% more than the Leaf we bought!

 

[MeQ]

Personally, I think that MB missed a trick with EVs. Too little, too late. They were sitting on the fence for far too long. For a while, their only EV was the EQC, and the first cars weren't great, both from the tech point of view and the reliability. In the luxury sector, the EQE and EQS are magnificent beasts, but being introduced in 2022 means that they have a lot of catching-up to do in order to gain market share. The smaller EQA and EQB are battling in a busy market segment against a plethora of small EVs from various manufacturers including the Korean and Chinese. MB simply didn't commit the resources early enough. Personal opinion.

Agreed… I think the earlier shared platform EV models EQC etc have definitely damaged sales of the all new EV platform used on EQE/EQS. The new and old platforms are worlds apart but you hardly see the new on the road.

I don’t recall seeing any advertising either. Is it a lack of confidence in the new platform or is something else in the pipeline already waiting for a full steam ahead approach from Mercedes?

 

[BTB 500]

It’s nonsense to say that you don’t want to buy one because every time you get in a car you have to drive 360 miles in winter conditions and can’t afford a 15 minute stop to top up the charge. (While you have a pee and pick up a coffee)

When an EV that does meet your needs reaches 4-5 years old, like your C class, it will be as cheap to buy as your C300 AND it will be cheaper to run, as long as you’re charging from home and starting off most days with 300 miles of cheap fuel “in your tank.”

It's not going to be one stop though, and it isn't going to be 15 minutes either. Realistically it's going to be 5-10 mins from dropping out of cruise control on the motorway until the vehicle actually starts charging. And similarly 5 mins or so from the charge stopping to being up to cruising speed on the motorway again. And I don't want a pee, or a coffee. I want to get home.

5 year old EVs are another discussion. Most manufacturers seem to be quite open about an expected lifespan of 8-10 years for these vehicles, so dropping £20k plus on one doesn't seem like a great investment. And of course a 5 year old EV will have significantly worse range than a current model (even based on original spec. and ignoring battery degradation).

 

[BTB 500]

Exactly, so argue the case from the point of view that you’ve got an old car and don’t want to buy a new one.

When you drive in the dead of winter you might require two fifteen minute stops because you’re driving in snow and ice. Recharging at a motorway charger is actually that fast in the worst conditions. But you know full well that most times you aren’t driving 250 miles without a break.

And if you’re averaging 70mph on UK motorways you’re breaking a lot of speed limits. Most of us Brits are averaging 50mph at best on a long journey like that, which makes the range better than the numbers you’re quoting

As mentioned old EVs are even worse on range, so not really a viable option. And no charging stop is going to take 15 mins in total. And while I don't normally drive 250 miles non-stop I do regularly cover 160-180 miles on the motorways, which is going to be pretty tight on even current model EVs never mind 5 year old ones. My mum is in a care home which is 160 miles from where I live.

My average speed for the run home on Sunday night was 59 mph due to the relatively short non-motorway sections at either end. That doesn't change the fact that most of the distance was covered at normal motorway speeds, where EVs don't perform well in terms of range.

 

[markjay]

...5 year old EVs are another discussion. Most manufacturers seem to be quite open about an expected lifespan of 8-10 years for these vehicles, so dropping £20k plus on one doesn't seem like a great investment. And of course a 5 year old EV will have significantly worse range than a current model (even based on original spec. and ignoring battery degradation).

There's is indeed a possibility that EVs will become like electronic devices, i.e. having very short service life due to rapidly developing tech. Who wants a 10 years old iPhone, or laptop, it TV, etc? But this is only sustainable if the price of the new tech goes down significantly over time.

If EVs become cheap to make, then it would be a problem fro the financial perspective if they become obsolete after 8-10 years, as a new one will be cheap and the overall cost of ownership won't be higher than that if ICE cars of old.

This is not entirely impossible, given that EVs are far less complex mechanically and more simple to build than cars with internal combustion engines and transmissions (and the associated emission control systems). Also, electronic components are typically made in the far east where the cost of production is lower, while metalwork is traditionally made in Western countries where production costs are higher.

However, it is not a win-win situation, because from the environmental perspective, cars that are cheap to make, cheap to buy, and get replaced sooner, is a nightmare scenario. The amounts of perfectly serviceable but technologically-obsolete computers, TVs, and other electronic devices being discarded is far to high as it is - we don't need to supplement it with EVs.

 

[BTB 500]

That is hugely expensive from where I am sitting. My daily driver costs under 2p.

That's a Nissan Leaf though? Leased? If so how much are you paying for that in order to achieve 2p a mile when you drive it?

 

[MeQ]

There's is indeed a possibility that EVs will become like electronic devices, i.e. having very short service life due to rapidly developing tech. Who wants a 10 years old iPhone, or laptop, it TV, etc? But this is only sustainable if the price of the new tech goes down significantly over time.

If EVs become cheap to make, then it would be a problem fro the financial perspective if they become obsolete after 8-10 years, as a new one will be cheap and the overall cost of ownership won't be higher than that if ICE cars of old.

This is not entirely impossible, given that EVs are far less complex mechanically and more simple to build than cars with internal combustion engines and transmissions (and the associated emission control systems). Also, electronic components are typically made in the far east where the cost of production is lower, while metalwork is traditionally made in Western countries where production costs are higher.

However, it is not a win-win situation, because from the environmental perspective, cars that are cheap to make, cheap to buy, and get replaced sooner, is a nightmare scenario. The amounts of perfectly serviceable but technologically-obsolete computers, TVs, and other electronic devices being discarded is far to high as it is - we don't need to supplement it with EVs.

Will EVs end up like old PCs, cheap and easy to upgrade the tech to run them? I had one of our office PC drives upgraded a couple of years ago, less than £100 and it’s quicker than my nearly new very expensive laptop.

Will batteries or whatever powers EVs become more reliable with a longer lifespan, bigger range, quicker charging?… of course they will, it’s just a question of when.

Will they become cheaper? Possibly not. iPhones for example are far from cheap even with Apples huge market share and production levels.

 

[BTB 500]

Will batteries or whatever powers EVs become more reliable with a longer lifespan, bigger range, quicker charging?… of course they will, it’s just a question of when.

Agreed. Li Ion batteries are 20+ year old technology - we know they have serious limitations, and they're often what determines the lifespan of whatever they are fitted to. There are only tiny improvements to be found now - at the moment EV manufacturers are simply finding ways to fit more and more of them into their vehicles to improve range. More weight, more cost, more power required to avoid longer charge times ... none of those are ideal. There will be a step change at some point, as happened when we went from NiCd and NiMH to Li Ion.

 

[BTB 500]

My IONIQ 5 has a WLTP range of 285 miles (due to the car's configuration my particular model is not at the top of the WLTP range for the IONIQ 5).

Yesterday, I drove family members to Heathrow T5 at 4am, via the M4 then M25. I charged the car to 100% before leaving hone. It was dark, cold and raining, and the car used the lights, wipers, and heating. The car showed a remaining range of 250 miles when on the motorway. However, I was unable to make 70mph due to the driving conditions, the speed was around 60-65mph.

In contrast, during the summer, when driving around town in slow traffic and with lots of regeneration braking, the car showed a remaining range of 340 miles.

So the WLTP range is only a sort of average figures. But the main issue here is that - unlike official mpg figures for ICE cars - the fluctuations are much greater and can be around ±15-20%, which is a lot.

There's an independent test here of an IONIQ 5 with the same 285 mile WLTP range, and at 75 mph they only got 127 miles by taking the battery down to 6%

Hyundai Ioniq 5 Range Tested In The Worst Conditions

Here we have Battery Life's range test of the top of the line version of the car (72.6 kWh, AWD) in pretty bad conditions.

insideevs.com

That was in rain but not particularly cold conditions (12-13C). They calculated a theoretical maximum of 138 miles using the entire pack capacity, which is only 48% of the WLTP figure.

75 mph is obviously illegal in the UK, but with a recommended minimum of 79 mph for a fixed penalty it's not an unusual/unreasonable motorway speed.

 

[MeQ]

There's an independent test here of an IONIQ 5 with the same 285 mile WLTP range, and at 75 mph they only got 127 miles by taking the battery down to 6%

Crazy difference!! I plan to drive to Scotland early next year (267 miles from home) and was assuming I can easily do it without stopping so fingers crossed the EQE doesn’t suffer the same

*edit* double checked and it’s 388 miles door to door so I’ll have to stop anyway

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Yes , but it is not going to last.

Send in your CV.

They’d love to hire you directly, or to replace all the experts who’ve told them to sell a third of their vehicles in China this year.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Crazy difference!! I plan to drive to Scotland early next year (267 miles from home) and was assuming I can easily do it without stopping so fingers crossed the EQE doesn’t suffer the same

*edit* double checked and it’s 388 miles door to door so I’ll have to stop anyway

Casablanca quote: “You were misinformed.”

Twice.

How do you drive 400 miles without stopping? I do it a dozen times a year and it would never cross my mind to drive eight hours without a stop.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Will they become cheaper? Possibly not. iPhones for example are far from cheap even with Apples huge market share and production levels.

Obviously TV’s laptops and phones are far cheaper than they were.

What keeps their prices up, is the insane improvement in functionality and power. The £1200 iPhone isn’t the same as the £400 iPhone of 15 years ago. (Streaming, video recording, Spotify, Waze, Bluetooth, 5G …)

 

[MeQ]

Casablanca quote: “You were misinformed.”

Twice.

How do you drive 400 miles without stopping? I do it a dozen times a year and it would never cross my mind to drive eight hours without a stop.

I’d possible stop for a pee but wouldn’t need an extended stop to charge if range allowed. Two of us driving if needed.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

My two Vauxhall Omegas and two C-Class were a pleasure to own and drive. I still miss my W204. I am now driving an IONIQ 5 and recently drove a Prius rental and I can't fault either car, very very solid build quality and very well put together, very reliable and predictable on the road, but there's just no excitement.

Shush ! Don’t tell them about you Ioniq5. I want that when you’re done with it. SAAB 900Turbo-tastic

Prius? I refer you to the wisdom of Jeff Dunham. Fine for the carriage trade or someone on a budget, but no replacement for a Ford Focus. Yet.

 

[markjay]

There's an independent test here of an IONIQ 5 with the same 285 mile WLTP range, and at 75 mph they only got 127 miles by taking the battery down to 6%

Hyundai Ioniq 5 Range Tested In The Worst Conditions

Here we have Battery Life's range test of the top of the line version of the car (72.6 kWh, AWD) in pretty bad conditions.

insideevs.com

That was in rain but not particularly cold conditions (12-13C). They calculated a theoretical maximum of 138 miles using the entire pack capacity, which is only 48% of the WLTP figure.

75 mph is obviously illegal in the UK, but with a recommended minimum of 79 mph for a fixed penalty it's not an unusual/unreasonable motorway speed.

I just had a closer look.

The car I have is the one I marked with the red rectangle. The car tested was the one marked with the blue rectangle:

My car actually has a WLPT range of 298 miles, it seems. The highest WLPT available in the IONIQ 5 range is 315 miles.

I can't argue with their figures (and we should keep in mind that my figures are based on the display on the dash, not real miles in a controlled test).

However, I would point out the following:

An 'average' speed of 75mph isn't saying much, because EVs perform poorly at high speed, and the increase in energy consumption isn't linear - i.e. if they drove (say) 50 miles at 85mph and 50 miles at 65mph, then the overall consumption will be significantly higher than if the car was driven 100 miles at a constant speed of 75mph.

Then, the car has a myriad of settings regarding energy efficiency. I just drive it in 'Normal' mode and set the braking regen level to 'Auto'. But you can improve on the default settings if you want to prioritise economy over performance.

And last, the auto-pilot (called HDA2) isn't very energy efficient, and to maximise range you really want to manage the speed yourself. The main issue is that it cannot predict other cars' behaviour. For example, when driving on the motorway, say you are in the inner lane behind a slow car because you intend to take the next exit, and the car ahead of you moves over to the middle lane. At the same time, further ahead, you see a slow lorry moving from the middle lane to the inner lane. An experienced driver will know that there's no point in speeding up because you'll simply get behind the lorry sooner. But the auto-pilot will speed up to 70mph as soon as the road ahead is clear, only to brake once you catch-up with the lorry ahead. This is just one example.

EDIT: My guess is that the main factor behind the poor mileage that they managed to get in the video clip, is due to speed - 75mph isn't good for an EV, and since it seems that they have actually driven the car at even higher speeds, my guess is that this is the main range killer.