The EV fact thread

[molgrips]

Just found this thread, are we pro- or anti-EV on here? I have one, I think they are great.

However:

You think it isn’t relevant that an e-Golf has lost more than £20k in five years while a petrol Golf lost just £6k

I don't think that tells you much. e-Golfs were early EVs and they have a very short range - modern EVs, that people are getting on salary sacrifice, are far more advanced. A petrol Golf on the other hand is pretty much exactly the same as it was 5 years ago so of course. The e-Golfs are a pretty similar price at 5 years old, having had a quick look on Autotrader, so there must be people wanting them. I nearly bought one this summer.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Just found this thread, are we pro- or anti-EV on here? I have one, I think they are great.



I don't think that tells you much. e-Golfs were early EVs and they have a very short range - modern EVs, that people are getting on salary sacrifice, are far more advanced. A petrol Golf on the other hand is pretty much exactly the same as it was 5 years ago so of course. The e-Golfs are a pretty similar price at 5 years old, having had a quick look on Autotrader, so there must be people wanting them. I nearly bought one this summer.

We’re supposed to be forming a view about the facts. Other opinions are available.

Agreed that EVs are changing very quickly, but does that mean that the later ones eg 2020, won’t be superseded as new ones arrive? (I’ve been told many times not to consider an e-Golf because it’s not a purpose built EV like the ID3 and ID4). The 150 mile range of the later e-Golf is better than the earlier 100 mile range car, but already looks “dated” compared to 200+ mile range EV’s.

The odd thing about equally priced e-Golfs and Golf 1.0’s and 1.4’s is that they are closely priced at five years old. “Obviously” an e-Golf “should” be cheaper to fuel, especially if charged at home. So why aren’t they more expensive as a result of more demand for them? Are people frightened of the tech? Or do people not actually like the way they drive? (They’re heavy and crash around on urban roads, not everyone likes regenerative braking, and quite a few are ex-Rental from Zipcar)

As for the salary sacrifice point, that applies to all EV’s, not just the latest models. Again, it maybe points to EVs being popular / affordable when new but not when used. (There are some real shocker used prices around for one year old EV’s. Check out the Nissan Leaf in particular)

 

[markjay]

We’re supposed to be forming a view about the facts. Other opinions are available.

Agreed that EVs are changing very quickly, but does that mean that the later ones eg 2020, won’t be superseded as new ones arrive? (I’ve been told many times not to consider an e-Golf because it’s not a purpose built EV like the ID3 and ID4). The 150 mile range of the later e-Golf is better than the earlier 100 mile range car, but already looks “dated” compared to 200+ mile range EV’s.

The odd thing about equally priced e-Golfs and Golf 1.0’s and 1.4’s is that they are closely priced at five years old. “Obviously” an e-Golf “should” be cheaper to fuel, especially if charged at home. So why aren’t they more expensive as a result of more demand for them? Are people frightened of the tech? Or do people not actually like the way they drive? (They’re heavy and crash around on urban roads, not everyone likes regenerative braking, and quite a few are ex-Rental from Zipcar)

As for the salary sacrifice point, that applies to all EV’s, not just the latest models. Again, it maybe points to EVs being popular / affordable when new but not when used. (There are some real shocker used prices around for one year old EV’s. Check out the Nissan Leaf in particular)

There are indeed very many factors that determine the value of second hand EVs.

However, the issue is that [some of those in] the anti-EV camp simply see EV depreciation as 'proof' that "people don't want electric vehicles" and that the government is forcing the car buying public to do things that they don't want to do. Which has some element of truth for some people, but it's certainly not the factual description of the situation.

The other issue is that there's an erroneous assumption that second hand car values are determined solely by desirability.

I pointed out before, that company cars coming off their business leases flood the second hand car market and drive down the value for these models. This has always been the case.

Check which models are the fleet buyers' favourites this year, and I guarantee you that they will be among the most heavily deprecated cars in 2-3 years time. That's just supply-and-demand.

 

[Mactech]

Looks a lot like Chez Dazzler.

I'm not sure Chez Dazzler looks anything like as Astranomical......and distinctly more select

 

[SmartAmg]

Just found this thread, are we pro- or anti-EV on here? I have one, I think they are great.

I would say probably more anti-EV than pro-EV. That's just how it is, not just on here though, other forum's aswell. Shame really.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I would say probably more anti-EV than pro-EV. That's just how it is, not just on here though, other forum's aswell. Shame really.

And in magazine feedback.

Both the UN regulators (COP etc) and the manufacturers have done an appalling job of taking the public with them on this initiative.

We’re in one of the top four countries of the world in terms of total number of EVs sold each year. (Not penetration: tiny wealthy countries like Norway are higher). We’re boldly leading, but Globally not many are following

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

All that said, “most” on here … probably … acknowledge that EVs are A Good Thing. The issue is that many don’t believe they want one yet.

 

[Mactech]

Just found this thread, are we pro- or anti-EV on here? I have one, I think they are great.

Good question! I've got the splinters from sitting on the fence, and can see the attributes of both EV and IC vehicles.

Firstly I would say there is no such thing as the average person and we all differs in our needs, tastes and desires.
I'm in the stage of 'downsizing' in retirement and my fleet has been culled in the 3 years I've been back in Norfolk from 4 to 2 vehicles.
So now one of each EV and IC. I would say that 90% of our journeys are in the EV, but only 50% of our mileage. That gives clue to usage of both.
Two of my main reasons for owning an EV are that I have surplus electrical energy from an eco house, and that after years of working with composite race cars, I fancied a composite road car. Probably not at the top of most others lists!
But I did find a photo of the inside of the garage of our house prior to buying it, and can you see what I see?
It is even the same colour!... if the older Rex model (fuel flap in front wing)
Maybe, the previous owner (and builder) of the house had similar ideas...

 

[grober]

While most of the ICE THREADS are based on individual owners REAL LIFE experience of driving,owning,maintaining their cars [mainly positive input] the bulk of the EV THREADS are from individuals based on hypothetical scenarios of driving,owning,maintaining EV cars [ mainly negative input] rather than REAL LIFE experience
e.g. the statement proposed - EV cars are more likely to go on fire - answered by the question-has your EV gone on fire- answered by the statement -I don't own an EV! not questioning the validity of the information just its origin . First or secondhand.

 

[poormansporsche]

Looks a lot like Chez Dazzler.

A couple of tumble down caravans would finish the ambience off nicely

 

[Mactech]

Yes, as you say there will no doubt be plenty of cars not in use that haven’t quite made it to the scrapper:

View attachment 150720

I suspect many of those Vauxhall's will have been abandoned due to being uncomfortable. I believe many owners complained of Astroids.....

 

[molgrips]

The used market is interesting. I leased my first EV, an excellent Ioniq EV (not the 5, the un-numbered one) for a bargain price when our other car was written off. When that went back I bought a 4 year old Leaf which is not bad, but not great. Honestly the short range is not a big deal, the biggest issue is the ride and ling distance driving comfort.

It was cheap at £9k but they do sell well at those prices. I think that there are large numbers of people who like me want short range cars for commuting but don't want to pay £25k for a fancy car. Once older EVs drop to the sort of price people can afford for second commuter cars their value should then be assured. Because people do want them.

There are lots of new models but demand is still high, new prices of cheaper cars are falling (or will fall), and people are wanting the cars foe different reasons so its a strange market.

FWIW I cannot see advantages of ICEs other than low purchase cost for older ones. Range is a non-issue once you can get more than 180 or so miles between charges. It's very easy to adapt to that.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The used market is interesting. I leased my first EV, an excellent Ioniq EV (not the 5, the un-numbered one) for a bargain price when our other car was written off. When that went back I bought a 4 year old Leaf which is not bad, but not great. Honestly the short range is not a big deal, the biggest issue is the ride and ling distance driving comfort.

It was cheap at £9k but they do sell well at those prices. I think that there are large numbers of people who like me want short range cars for commuting but don't want to pay £25k for a fancy car. Once older EVs drop to the sort of price people can afford for second commuter cars their value should then be assured. Because people do want them.

There are lots of new models but demand is still high, new prices of cheaper cars are falling (or will fall), and people are wanting the cars foe different reasons so its a strange market.

FWIW I cannot see advantages of ICEs other than low purchase cost for older ones. Range is a non-issue once you can get more than 180 or so miles between charges. It's very easy to adapt to that.

Don’t let reality get in the way of someone’s else’s theoretical argument!

 

[markjay]

The used market is interesting. I leased my first EV, an excellent Ioniq EV (not the 5, the un-numbered one) for a bargain price when our other car was written off. When that went back I bought a 4 year old Leaf which is not bad, but not great. Honestly the short range is not a big deal, the biggest issue is the ride and ling distance driving comfort.

It was cheap at £9k but they do sell well at those prices. I think that there are large numbers of people who like me want short range cars for commuting but don't want to pay £25k for a fancy car. Once older EVs drop to the sort of price people can afford for second commuter cars their value should then be assured. Because people do want them.

There are lots of new models but demand is still high, new prices of cheaper cars are falling (or will fall), and people are wanting the cars foe different reasons so its a strange market.

FWIW I cannot see advantages of ICEs other than low purchase cost for older ones. Range is a non-issue once you can get more than 180 or so miles between charges. It's very easy to adapt to that.

What, no caravan?

 

[Bellow]

All that said, “most” on here … probably … acknowledge that EVs are A Good Thing.

When all of the electricity they use in both production and use is renewably generated they will be. Until then they are merely competing and not winning over ICE.

The issue is that many don’t believe they want one yet.

Or realise that on wind-free days wind turbines don't generate and that solar can be patchy and don't feel inclined to shell out on a solution no better in green terms that ICE (on days where renewably generated electricity is scarce, recharging an EV is wholly worse than ICE. Will EV drivers refrain from recharging on such days?). That, and other drawbacks mainly related to recharging - which may be a figment of imagination for some but for others are insurmountable obstacles. There are good reasons why a person may not want an EV and it isn't necessarily the case that the person is wrong in their conclusion. No amount of persuasion will change that. The EV, its green-ness of sourced electricity for recharging, and the recharging infrastructure has to adapt to user's demands.

 

[BTB 500]

FWIW I cannot see advantages of ICEs other than low purchase cost for older ones. Range is a non-issue once you can get more than 180 or so miles between charges. It's very easy to adapt to that.

As already mentioned people use their cars in different ways, and what works for one person may not work for another.

No doubt whatsoever that EVs can be good for shorter trips (commuting etc.), particularly if you are able to charge at home. However the difference in price compared to an equivalent ICE would buy a lot of fuel, so if you're not doing much mileage like that then the payback period could be significant.

We quite frequently do long/fast 'off peak' motorway runs, which are not (yet) a good use case for EVs. For example we left home at 04:00 on Sunday morning to drive 180 miles to the ExCeL centre in Docklands (M54/M6/M1/M25/M11), and got home again at 23:30. A long and tiring day, and the last thing either us would have wanted would have been to extend that further by making multiple charging stops along the way (there was no charging available at our destination). Motorway range simply isn't an issue with our petrol estate car, which costs under 16p a mile on fuel and is ULEZ compliant.

Even less typical, but we also run a van which is necessary to transport 3 people and up to 10 dogs when we're competing with them at weekends. Electric vans cost a fortune, have laughable ranges for motorway driving (commonly 70-100 miles), and again none of our destinations have EV charging available. So ICE is the only practical solution, even ignoring the fact that we also take a 1.5 tonne caravan with us fairly often between May and September.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I would say probably more anti-EV than pro-EV. That's just how it is, not just on here though, other forum's aswell. Shame really.

...and society in general....Even non car people seem to be able to find rather more reasons for not buying an EV than for buying one.

 

[ALFAitalia]

When all of the electricity they use in both production and use is renewably generated they will be. Until then they are merely competing and not winning over ICE.

Or realise that on wind-free days wind turbines don't generate and that solar can be patchy and don't feel inclined to shell out on a solution no better in green terms that ICE (on days where renewably generated electricity is scarce, recharging an EV is wholly worse than ICE. Will EV drivers refrain from recharging on such days?). That, and other drawbacks mainly related to recharging - which may be a figment of imagination for some but for others are insurmountable obstacles. There are good reasons why a person may not want an EV and it isn't necessarily the case that the person is wrong in their conclusion. No amount of persuasion will change that. The EV, its green-ness of sourced electricity for recharging, and the recharging infrastructure has to adapt to user's demands.

Even as a non EV fan....there is one hell of a lot of BS in that one post!

 

[SmartAmg]

...and society in general....Even non car people seem to be able to find rather more reasons for not buying an EV than for buying one.

Yep, probably right.

 

[Bellow]

Even as a non EV fan....there is one hell of a lot of BS in that one post!

Try countering with facts then.