The EV fact thread

[markjay]

Slower charging generally costs less than faster charging. Local authority charging generally costs less than commercial charging. Charging on major routes generally costs more than charging in side roads.

So it’s likely to be less expensive than the huge number of non-Tesla charging points you can see laid empty up and down our motorway network.

In Westminster, London, lamppost chargers were installed back in 2018. These are slow 5.5kW chargers, and the electricity isn't cheap - it varies, but typically around 40-45p per kW (depending on time of day). In other boroughs I saw retractable charging bollards, which is a similar principle. In addition, there are fast chargers in petrol station and street corners.

However, these city-street chargers work well only in densely populate areas when people live in blocks of flats, and the revenue from charging returns the ROI plus profit.

The issue is in suburbs and vilages where you have houses without a driveway. E.g., if there's a cul-de-sac with (say) 10 properties, and none have a driveway, installing charging bollards or lamppost charging will likely prove uneconomical.

Yes, there will be public chargers available farther afield, but not being able to charge the car near your home will be a major issue for many.

The solution might be similar to public transport and domestic electricity, where it's a condition of the operator's license that the service provider must also serve remote areas where it would not be commercially viable to do so otherwise. In other words, the income from the busy chargers in urban areas will subsidise the cost of installing and maintaining 'idle' chargers in suburbs and rural areas.

 

[philnewmerc]

Slower charging generally costs less than faster charging. Local authority charging generally costs less than commercial charging. Charging on major routes generally costs more than charging in side roads.

So it’s likely to be less expensive than the huge number of non-Tesla charging points you can see laid empty up and down our motorway network.

To be clear, what I was really asking is, when it arrives en mass, will the slow overnight lamppost charging for people without driveways be enticingly cheap, ie anything approaching charging at home? Sounds like it's a no:--

In Westminster, London, lamppost chargers were installed back in 2018. These are slow 5.5kW chargers, and the electricity isn't cheap - it varies, but typically around 40-45p per kW (depending on time of day). In other boroughs I saw retractable charging bollards, which is a similar principle. In addition, there are fast chargers in petrol station and street corners ...

40 p/kWh seems quite steep tbh for slow overnight charging that costs driveway owners 7ppkwh. I thought It'd be lower. Obviously makes sense for some, but that puts it on a par with a typical diesel in pence per mile.

I've been offered a company car but obviously it has to be an EV, and I'd be happy with one in terms of driving. But so far I've just taken the extremely tax inefficient salary uplift and my own depreciation/servicing hit and at that ppkwh price i think I'll continue to for a few more years yet. Oh well.

 

[markjay]

To be clear, what I was really asking is, when it arrives en mass, will the slow overnight lamppost charging for people without driveways be enticingly cheap, ie anything approaching charging at home? Sounds like it's a no:--


40 p/kWh seems quite steep tbh for slow overnight charging that costs driveway owners 7ppkwh. I thought It'd be lower. Obviously makes sense for some, but that puts it on a par with a typical diesel in pence per mile.

I've been offered a company car but obviously it has to be an EV, and I'd be happy with one in terms of driving. But so far I've just taken the extremely tax inefficient salary uplift and my own depreciation/servicing hit and at that ppkwh price i think I'll continue to for a few more years yet. Oh well.

I fully agree.

Part of the issue is that the VAT rate for domestic electricity is 5%, while there's 20% VAT on electricity from public chargers.

The difficulty for the government is that at current they can't distinguish between electricity used at home and electricity used to charge your EV on the driveway.

But the installation of 'smart' chargers will allow the utilities to know when the electricity is used to charge an EV, which will pave the way for higher electricity cost (and/or duty and tax) for EVs charged at home via dedicated 7kW or 11kW chargers.

However, ultimately, there's nothing stopping people from gaming the system and charging their EV from a wall socket in the living room using a granny cable through the window.....

 

[Bellow]

However, ultimately, there's nothing stopping people from gaming the system and charging their EV from a wall socket in the living room using a granny cable through the window.....

That ends when the cars no longer have the provision for 3-pin charging. And there are reasons/incentives for that to prevail.

 

[markjay]

That ends when the cars no longer have the provision for 3-pin charging. And there are reasons/incentives for that to prevail.

EVs don't have the provision for 3-pin charging. It's done via an external adapter. I don't think you can ban the use of these adapters

 

[SmartAmg]

That ends when the cars no longer have the provision for 3-pin charging. And there are reasons/incentives for that to prevail.

Why would EVs no longer have the provision for 3 pin charging? And what's the reasons/incentives for that to prevail.
Pray tell.

 

[Bellow]

EVs don't have the provision for 3-pin charging. It's done via an external adapter. I don't think you can ban the use of these adapters

The onboard transformer and rectifier converting 240V AC to DC could be dispensed with - job done.

 

[SmartAmg]

The onboard transformer and rectifier converting 240V AC to DC could be dispensed with - job done.

Don't doubt that. But why, would they?

 

[Bellow]

Why would EVs no longer have the provision for 3 pin charging? And what's the reasons/incentives for that to prevail.
Pray tell.

It's been covered extensively on this thread but for those unable to retain information... It is inefficient, cannot be taxed, cannot be controlled WRT to grid capability, isn't amenable to car-to-grid flow, creates trip hazards when cables are across pavements.

 

[markjay]

The onboard transformer and rectifier converting 240V AC to DC could be dispensed with - job done.

Not practicallly possible. All chargers up to 22kW are 240V AC. DC charging is only available above that figure. Home chargers are typically 7kW or 11kW.

What you are proposing will not only disable every lamppost and bollard charger already installed around the country, but it will also disable all driveway charging - unless the home owner opts for the installation of a commercial DC fast charger on their driveway (which no one will do).

 

[SmartAmg]

It's been covered extensively on this thread but for those unable to retain information... It is inefficient, cannot be taxed, cannot be controlled WRT to grid capability, isn't amenable to car-to-grid flow, creates trip hazards when cables are across pavements.

I can retain info. But you brought it up, again. Don't think they will scrap granny cables at all. End of. And I'm talking about charging from the house, to the car. Not across pavements. Which very few do. And even then, if done correctly, are no problem at all.

 

[markjay]

It's been covered extensively on this thread but for those unable to retain information... It is inefficient, cannot be taxed, cannot be controlled WRT to grid capability, isn't amenable to car-to-grid flow, creates trip hazards when cables are across pavements, but cannot be practically banned.

FTFY

 

[Bellow]

Not practicallly possible. All chargers up to 22kW are 240V AC. DC charging is only available above that figure. Home chargers are typically 7kW or 11kW.

Wow! EVs have batteries that can store AC. Well that's certainly news to me!

What you are proposing will not only disable every lamppost and bollard charger already installed around the country,

If those chargers are employing the same transformer/rectifier as used during 3-pin then they too will incur the same losses - as has been extensively detailed by BTB500. Inefficiency that is hard to justify.

but it will also disable all driveway charging - unless the home owner opts for the installation of a commercial DC fast charger on their driveway (which no one will do).

Exactly. But the reasons I have given aren't easily dismissed and will for a number of reasons need to be broached.

 

[markjay]

Wow! EVs have batteries that can store AC. Well that's certainly news to me!

If those chargers are employing the same transformer/rectifier as used during 3-pin then they too will incur the same losses - as has been extensively detailed by BTB500. Inefficiency that is hard to justify.

Exactly. But the reasons I have given aren't easily dismissed and will for a number of reasons need to be broached.

Look, you may be theoretically right, I have no idea. But it's a futile discussion, because things are clearly not heading this way, and an Internet thread won't make any difference to the reality that is forming around us. AC charging is not going away any time soon. Good, bad? It's a moot point.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I've been offered a company car but obviously it has to be an EV, and I'd be happy with one in terms of driving. But so far I've just taken the extremely tax inefficient salary uplift and my own depreciation/servicing hit and at that ppkwh price i think I'll continue to for a few more years yet. Oh well.

What’s an extremely tax inefficient salary uplift?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

40 p/kWh seems quite steep tbh for slow overnight charging that costs driveway owners 7ppkwh. I thought It'd be lower. Obviously makes sense for some, but that puts it on a par with a typical diesel in pence per mile.

Do remember that those who have the 7p rate pay more for the rest of their electricity consumption, so you have to charge at home a lot to make it worthwhile opting for an EV specific tariff.

 

[190]

This dilemma of being able to tax street charging but not being able to adequately tax home charging from a domestic supply is unlikely to be resolved. Whatever technological steps are taken to prevent low tax home charging, someone will find a way around it. The likes of AliExpress will do a roaring trade in the bit of kit needed to dodge the higher rate of tax. It will end up being a trade off between the inefficiency of home charging vs the saving in tax. If the tax is high enough i.e. as high as it is on ICE fuel then the tax saving will more than make up for the inefficiency.

I'm reminded of the similar taxation issue of low tax red diesel vs high tax automotive diesel. The law is clear but not that easy to enforce 100%. Years ago I knew farmers sons that ran their cars on red diesel with impunity because they had little fear of getting caught.

 

[markjay]

What’s an extremely tax inefficient salary uplift?

I think he meant to say that instead of taking the EV on offer and pay 3% in tax for the benefit (BIK), he opted for a pay increase to the value of the monthly lease of the EV.

Once tax is deducted (20%/40%/45%, depending on the band) off his additional pay, he then uses the remaing funds to buy and service his own car.

 

[markjay]

I think he meant to say that instead of taking the EV on offer and pay 3% in tax for the benefit (BIK), he opted for a pay increase to the value of the monthly lease of the EV.

Once tax is deducted (20%/40%/45%, depending on the band) off his additional pay, he then uses the remaing funds to buy and service his own car.

The other thing to consider is annual mileage.

My annual mileage is very low. And so I have no issue using Shell V-Power in my petrol car, or paying more for electricity for the EV, because in Pounds and Pennies the difference isn't huge.

But for someone who has high annual mileage the cost of electricity will be an issue requiring consideration.

 

[Will]

This dilemma of being able to tax street charging but not being able to adequately tax home charging from a domestic supply is unlikely to be resolved. Whatever technological steps are taken to prevent low tax home charging, someone will find a way around it. The likes of AliExpress will do a roaring trade in the bit of kit needed to dodge the higher rate of tax. It will end up being a trade off between the inefficiency of home charging vs the saving in tax. If the tax is high enough i.e. as high as it is on ICE fuel then the tax saving will more than make up for the inefficiency.

I'm reminded of the similar taxation issue of low tax red diesel vs high tax automotive diesel. The law is clear but not that easy to enforce 100%. Years ago I knew farmers sons that ran their cars on red diesel with impunity because they had little fear of getting caught.

I think this underlines the need to bring in usage based taxation, pay-per-mile.