Budget Day Today

[Alfie]

what about the british ones driving around in europe on roads that have no tolls e.g autobahn,autostrada and the aas in rotterdam and brussels?

Ahh but the British ones buy their fuel on the continent because its cheaper thus 'paying' their way in those countries.

Our roads are awash with HGV's from eastern europe which drive over here for upto two weeks on a tank full of fuel obtained outside this country, undercutting UK haulage firms. Exactly what are they putting into our economy? More to the point what are they taking out of it?

 

[MBManInKen]

Our roads are awash with HGV's from eastern europe which drive over here for upto two weeks on a tank full of fuel obtained outside this country, undercutting UK haulage firms. Exactly what are they putting into our economy? More to the point what are they taking out of it?

Oh yes, let's by all means get xenophobic. What precisely do you think these drivers are doing here other than either delivering to the British economy or picking up goods from them? Sight-seeing?

It's called trade.

 

[glojo]

What I don't understand is the statement about taxation changing behaviour.

I half understand and are large engined vehicles a necessity? First off I look at the preachers. They advocate using more economical vehicles; I ALWAYS take note of what cars our Ministers use and yes the Toyota Hybrid is extremely popular...., Top of the list for invisibility. I bet there are oodles of publicity photographs of Ministers using this method of transport but in the user stakes it is noticeable by its absence. How hypocritical to use large engined, petrol guzzling convoys to drive a few hundred yards! Please Mr Government explain to me why you need huge engined, petrol powered 4 x 4 Chelsea tractors to drive the very short distance from either Downing Street or the Ministerial buildings to the Palace of Westminster. What is wrong with a fleet of British made bio diesel (or other more economical fuel) powered taxi type vehicles for the most common short distance journeys, then perhaps have larger cars for the longer journeys, but NOT petrol powered?

My second, but more relevant point regarding taxation to change habits is; I live in a town, but the nearest bus service is over one mile away and there are VERY steep hills between our location and the nearest bus service. No footpaths and narrow lanes all making it unsuitable for pedestrians AND push bikes. Our family live in a village..... Again NO bus service or any type of public service. The elderly or non car owners will either 'phone a friend' or more common, use a taxi. Taxation to change habits? with this extra taxation then lets see subsidisation of public transportation, before discouraging the use of motor transport, then I might understand this 'change of habit' statement. Oh and don't forget our MPs (of all denominations) get in excess of £60,000 per year in travel expenses.

John the cynic

 

[prprandall51]

Oh yes, let's by all means get xenophobic. What precisely do you think these drivers are doing here other than either delivering to the British economy or picking up goods from them? Sight-seeing?

It's called trade.

I think you need to look "Xenophobic" up in the dictionary. At no point was Alfie's post xenophobic.

The point is that the truck drivers fuel up on the continent and then come over here and do more than deliver their original payload, they then make several other collections and deliveries - still using the original continental-sourced fuel in their tanks - before trickling back across the channel on empty to re-fuel and do it all over again.

Someone pointing out that British companies are suffering because of a loop-hole in our approach to vehicle taxation is not xenophobic or racist, it's talking common sense.

Philip

 

[Mr E]

Hi John,

You've hit the nail on the head - I'm interested in Game Theory and how this reflects human behaviour, and therefore what needs to be done in order to influence us to adopt what may be seen as sacrificial-type choices.

However - and all political hues are guilty of this - it's the incomplete implementation of such influencing methods that make it fall down. In fact, one could argue that ministers running around in big, large cars for short (or any) journeys actual reinforce the veracity of the theory!!

Perhaps some have got hold of the idea that I support the budget changes - please don't read things that aren't there...many of these changes are proposed by economists who subscribe to Nash's thoughts on this but a "true" implementation would deemed unpalatable by most, especially those who's current living standard is based on democracy. I remain staunchly apolitical (you might guess that no-one is radical enough for me) but prefer to understand the reasoning behind things rather than subscribing to a "money-snatching" knee-jerk reaction (it might end up being so, but it takes time to work that out).

 

[scotth_uk]

what about the british ones driving around in europe on roads that have no tolls e.g autobahn,autostrada and the aas in rotterdam and brussels?

I hadn't thought of that, but I think the same thing would be fair.

 

[glojo]

I remain staunchly apolitical (you might guess that no-one is radical enough for me) but prefer to understand the reasoning behind things rather than subscribing to a "money-snatching" knee-jerk reaction (it might end up being so, but it takes time to work that out).

There is always a party to cater for most folks taste Yesterday was 'Budgie Day' for the party that usually gets my vote

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party has announced its response to Gordon Brown’s Budgie.

We will be increasing the BED (budgie excise duty) on the least millett-efficient budgies by £400 per year.

Budgies that are environmentally friendly and don’t make a mess of their cages will receive a tax incentive to emit even lower quantities of greenhouse gases.

All budgies that talk, rather than just whistling or chuntering, will be taxed extremely highly. It’s only fair. This will be called the “for god’s sake shut up, you wretched little bird” tax.

The lowest rate of Feather Tax will be scrapped, thereby discouraging the less-well-off budgies from shaving.

A special Canary Tax will be introduced to encourage people to switch to more environmentally-friendly budgies.

I should really apologise for printing a Political statement but hey, lets live life on the edge. Some folks reckon John Smith QC was the greatest MP never to be Prime Minister, I don't disagree because sadly Screaming Lord Sutch never made it into Parliament

On a tad more serious note
I can understand the complaints about European hauliers coming into our country to ply their trade, but surely this has more to do with taxation methods as opposed to foul play? We ALL might take advantage of any given situation, but when being taken advantage of.... we tend to cry foul?

How many hauliers would make hay if the rail industry went on strike? Or indeed any other industrial dispute. How many hauliers that live near a channel port nip across to France to get some cheap fuel? What about the 'Booze Cruise' routes where folks buy van loads of alcohol and tobacco for 'personal' use? If the role was reversed are we saying we would NOT do exactly the same thing?

Taxation will never be fair but if we are genuinely a fully paid up member of the European Market then why are we not allowed to freely buy our cars from the cheapest European country without paying taxes?

John

Edit
I forgot to say that anyone who does not believe their standard of living is steadily improving is kidding themselves. How many of us have telephones, mobile phones, video recorder type equipment, colout tvs, micro waves, computers, game machines etc etc.

 

[gary350]

[QUOTE
I forgot to say that anyone who does not believe their standard of living is steadily improving is kidding themselves. How many of us have telephones, mobile phones, video recorder type equipment, colout tvs, micro waves, computers, game machines etc etc.[/QUOTE]


The in debt figures prove it.

gary

 

[glojo]

The in debt figures prove it.

gary

Surely that is a whole new question but if they can afford to be in debt then so what? They are still living within their means.

My old sergeant always used to say, "If the men aint moaning, WATCH OUT!"

Never a borrower, or a lender be.

 

[mobeyone]

Never a borrower, or a lender be.

Were a nation addicted to borrowing though...

 

[glojo]

Were a nation addicted to borrowing though...

speak for yourself (and 90% of the country )

John

 

[prprandall51]

Surely that is a whole new question but if they can afford to be in debt then so what? They are still living within their means.

But, astoundingly, a lot of these people do not realise that debt has to be paid back. There is an amazing figure (that I will try and find in a second) about how many young people today are unaware that credit card debts have to be paid off.

And then there is a whole shedload of people who now happily go into debt and then declare bankrupcy, all thanks to the shrewd change in government policy that makes into almost a lifestyle choice rahter than a to-be avoided disaster.


Philip

 

[mobeyone]

speak for yourself (and 90% of the country )

John

Oh you never

Where is that new barclaycard application form!!

 

[scotth_uk]

I am reading an Australian book called "The Big Picture" at present, written by Bernard Salt.

It describes the different sections of Australian society and their beliefs/ideals in such a way that you can totally respect what it is they hold dear. Fantastic to read about the ways in which we view issues such as savings, investment, earnings, debt, etc. A lot of it carries over to the UK. Specifically, I find the debt issue very interesting reading. My grandparents would only borrow what was absolutely required, whereas I carry at least 10k on cards at all times!!!

Author:
http://www.bernardsalt.com.au/

Book:
http://shop.abc.net.au/browse/product.asp?productid=520621

Synopsis:
When did it become socially acceptable, or at least not unacceptable, for a young couple to have children out of wedlock?

The answer is at some stage during the 1990s. What events and value-shifts have had the most influence on us as a nation? Can the Fella Filter save us from the man drought? Is food the new sex for the over-40s? What is the chaperone syndrome? At what age do you cease being young?

In his groundbreaking new book, bestselling author Bernard Salt tackles these and other social and demographic questions facing the Australian nation. Articulate, chatty and witty, The Big Picture interprets the factors that have a bearing on where we live, when we marry, and how we will work. This is a book that looks at the motivational forces that shape the Australian community.

 

[glojo]

But, astoundingly, a lot of these people do not realise that debt has to be paid back. There is an amazing figure (that I will try and find in a second) about how many young people today are unaware that credit card debts have to be paid off.

And then there is a whole shedload of people who now happily go into debt and then declare bankrupcy, all thanks to the shrewd change in government policy that makes into almost a lifestyle choice rahter than a to-be avoided disaster.


Philip

Both yourself and Scotth_uk have raised some excellent points, they are very sad, but valid. Have parents failed their siblings? Failed to teach them life, values and respect. This thread is about the budget, but really it is a neutral budget with not a great deal to write home about. We have then started to discuss credit, plus debt which I find very interesting, but perhaps slightly off topic.

Great points being made and thank you to those that keep this a healthy thriving forum that is capable of debating perhaps controversial issues.

A private individual going bankrupt?? I am aware of this, but it just seems so wrong. Are we so spoilt that the 'I want' culture rules our brain?

John

 

[prprandall51]

Following my previous post:

From the Scotsman newspaper:

Since 2004, bankruptcies in England and Wales have more than doubled from 46,650 to 107,288 following changes to the law which reduced the time it took to shake off, or discharge, a bankruptcy from three years to one. Last year alone they rose by 60%.

From the Telegraph newspaper:

The Personal Finance Education Group (PFEG) said that half of children had been in debt by the time they were 17, while many had a "worryingly laidback" attitude towards debt and spending.

The survey of more than 1,000 14- to 18-year-olds found that nearly a quarter of teenagers thought that having a bank overdraft would allow them to spend more than they earned every month.

One in five teenagers believed that getting a credit card would allow them to buy things that they would not otherwise be able to afford, while one in 20 of those questioned believed that there was no need to pay back credit card debt at all.

 

[MBManInKen]

I think you need to look "Xenophobic" up in the dictionary. At no point was Alfie's post xenophobic.

I beg to differ:

Xenophobia denotes a phobic attitude towards strangers or of the unknown

There are many ways in which xenophobia expresses itself, but the contrast between British drivers who "pay their way" on the continent and the "Eastern European" drivers of which Britain's roads according to the OP are so "full" and who do "not contribute" here at all in my book clasifies as a nice example of an opinion influenced by conscious or unconscious xenophobia.

The point is that the truck drivers fuel up on the continent and then come over here and do more than deliver their original payload, they then make several other collections and deliveries - still using the original continental-sourced fuel in their tanks - before trickling back across the channel on empty to re-fuel and do it all over again.

It seems to me that this is what you get in a free market. One can discuss issues of free market economies without referring to "Eastern European" drivers versus their British counterparts, who incidentally are free to trade abroad.

Someone pointing out that British companies are suffering because of a loop-hole in our approach to vehicle taxation is not xenophobic or racist, it's talking common sense.

Well, we'll agree to differ then. To me there is a clear xenophobic undertone in the way this is presented.

 

[prprandall51]

I beg to differ:
...
One can discuss issues of free market economies without referring to "Eastern European" drivers versus their British counterparts, who incidentally are free to trade abroad.

Yes, but one should also be able to discuss the issues of a free market economy with reference to Eastern European drivers versus their British counterparts without being automatically accused of being xenophobic.

For the rest, I agree to differ.

Philip

 

[mark.t]

I don't disagree with that at all and that's always been the case. Cars that make good towing machines, mine wouldn't , have always had that customer base and demand. But this tax may well protect it a bit more.

The people the tax is aimed at are those buying new cars

the peoples tax who can afford a new car ...not me ..... anyway the old girls still got it, she's getting on a bit ,but she can still pull

 

[MBManInKen]

For the rest, I agree to differ.

It's a deal . Otherwise, we'll be in the middle of a flame war soon