Cheap ride for EV users coming to an end ??

[Bobby Dazzler]

I would also argue that we’ve already reached - and probably passed - the pinnacle of ICE development. Without hybridisation they’re as efficient, powerful, and smooth as they’ll get. Even without electrification the pace of change has been slowing for some time. ICE are very mature technology, and improvements get smaller smaller over time.

I’m sure someone will say there should be more R&D on alternative fuels, which I dare say will continue regardless. Whether we’ll ever see widespread use of alternative fuels in passenger cars, I’m not sure - maybe for other vehicles, or for passenger cars designed for regular long distance driving - but I suspect the majority of cars will be electric for the foreseeable future.

Whilst we all have preferences, and in a period of change people like holding on to the familiar, the reality is that an EV is just as capable as an ICE engined car for 90%+ of journeys, for 90%+ of drivers. And no, charging infrastructure couldn’t cope with everyone switching overnight, but everyone won’t switch overnight.

 

[Wolfie1]

i currently work at a main dealers and there is electric cars in for repair all the time and it takes 2 guys 2 hours to make the car safe to work on and the same to bring it back into operation so for and job there is a minimum of 4 hours labour before any other work is done, i have seen motors changed, cooling/ heating systems needing work, charging systems not working properly, battery faults and wiring faults been done, now when the cars in warranty thats all fine and good but having to pay for this yourself gets really expensive really quickly and thats my issue with ev, its true what they say “ignorance is bliss”

 

[Deleted member 126251]

i currently work at a main dealers and there is electric cars in for repair all the time and it takes 2 guys 2 hours to make the car safe to work on and the same to bring it back into operation so for and job there is a minimum of 4 hours labour before any other work is done, i have seen motors changed, cooling/ heating systems needing work, charging systems not working properly, battery faults and wiring faults been done, now when the cars in warranty thats all fine and good but having to pay for this yourself gets really expensive really quickly and thats my issue with ev, its true what they say “ignorance is bliss”

So low maintenance but lots of faults....

”Turn it off for two minutes and the switch on again. If that doesn’t work, call us back”.

 

[grober]

Thought all EV vehicles had to have a main battery HV isolation link for emergency services and maintenance? What make of EV are we talking about here- sounds a very poorly thought out design. How does the removal of a v8 engine and gearbox compare workshop time wise to an electric motor and inverter?

 

[markjay]

So low maintenance but lots of faults....

”Turn it off for two minutes and the switch on again. If that doesn’t work, call us back”.

It's not a joke.

After reading on the various EV forums about issues that others had with their EVs, I now carry in the boot of my EV a 10mm spanner, to disconnect and reconnect the 12V battery in case of any computer issues (the computer is powered by a 12V Lead-Acid wet battery, and not directly from the HV traction battery, and so disconnecting the 12V battery resets the computer, which is apparently the standard first step when dealing with onboard computer issues).

Luckily I didn't need to use it yet.

 

[Wolfie1]

Thought all EV vehicles had to have a main battery HV isolation link for emergency services and maintenance? What make of EV are we talking about here- sounds a very poorly thought out design. How does the removal of a v8 engine and gearbox compare workshop time wise to an electric motor and inverter?

Well this type of ev has won car of the year awards! Bet you can work it out now. In the 5 years i have been there i have omly seen 2 v8 engines being changed one was a petrol and the other a diesel so time wise im not sure

 

[Deleted member 126251]

Thought all EV vehicles had to have a main battery HV isolation link for emergency services and maintenance? What make of EV are we talking about here- sounds a very poorly thought out design. How does the removal of a v8 engine and gearbox compare workshop time wise to an electric motor and inverter?

Before or after adding the first 4 man-hours to make it safe ? I’ve not worked on pulling an engine for ~48 years but does it take much more than 4 hours for an experienced mechanic to pull a modern engine? I could do my Renault R10 in under an hour - it rolled out on the rear wheels - I replaced several clutches on that one.......

 

[markjay]

Well this type of ev has won car of the year awards! Bet you can work it out now. In the 5 years i have been there i have omly seen 2 v8 engines being changed one was a petrol and the other a diesel so time wise im not sure

I think that engine swaps are rare these days, and they are mostly done under warranty.

The reason is that cars depreciate quickly, and the amount of work involved in replacing an engine on a modern car with all the turbos, emissions systems, sensors, and wiring looms, means that cars that require an engine swap often get scrapped simply because the labour costs plus the cost of the new or rebuilt ot second-hand engine etc make it uneconomic to repair, compared to the olden days when an engine swap was a simple job (Other reasons are the increase in wages beyong inflation, regulatory costs to the garage, and VAT - over the past 40 years).

And, with even older cars, this also applies not only to engine swaps, but also to other engine-out jobs such as replacing a timing chain at the rear of the engine etc - the older the car, the less likely it is to be repaired.

EVs will be no different, I suspect, I.e. once they depreciate and out-of-warranty, most faults that require a major repair will simply see the car scrapped.

I theory EVs should be more reliable than ICE cars, because of the much smaller number of mechanical components and moving parts, but this has to be balanced against the fact that engines and transmissions have been perfected over the fast ten decades, while EV tech is mostly new and much of it is still in the development stage.

Additionally, EVs are likely to become technologically-obsolete long before they reach the end of their service life, which will potentially drive-down used car prices even quicker, and see old EVs scrapped at a growing rate due repairs becoming uneconomic at an earlier stage of their life cycle.

Which isn't green! no car can ever be. But I digress....

 

[190]

i currently work at a main dealers and there is electric cars in for repair all the time and it takes 2 guys 2 hours to make the car safe to work on and the same to bring it back into operation so for and job there is a minimum of 4 hours labour before any other work is done, i have seen motors changed, cooling/ heating systems needing work, charging systems not working properly, battery faults and wiring faults been done, now when the cars in warranty thats all fine and good but having to pay for this yourself gets really expensive really quickly and thats my issue with ev, its true what they say “ignorance is bliss”

This real world insight is valuable.

In spite of the claimed inherent simplicity, I suspect that once out of warranty an EV will be more expensive to maintain than an IC. If it takes two main dealer trained technicians, 2 hours to make an EV safe to work on, what chance has the local garage or DIY man got. An EV may have mechanical simplicity but they will be much more complex in the high voltage and electronics depts. For me that throws out the window the idea that EV's will be simple.

 

[grober]

If we are talking JAGUAR here their I-Pace seems to have more than its fair share of problems?

Faults & Technical

Faults and Technical chat for the Jaguar I-Pace

www.ipaceforums.co.uk

 

[markjay]

If we are talking JAGUAR here their I-Pace seems to have more than its fair share of problems?

Faults & Technical

Faults and Technical chat for the Jaguar I-Pace

www.ipaceforums.co.uk

Jaguar Land Rover and Tesla typically occupy the bottom slots on most reliability surveys. And this is over all makes, I.e. not just EVs.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

What on earth takes four hours?

 

[Wolfie1]

So at work i was asking the ev specialist about repair times in regards to ic and ev, so he was saying that time for repairs for changing motors via engines is much and such the same as there is far more checks involved with an ev before a motor can be changed and its a very similair process to changing an ic engine, he also stated that parts are much much more expensive in an ev and when you work within the battery 3 people are needed until its made safe, there is a specific order in which the buzz bars have to be replaced to step down the battery from 800v down to a safe 60v (and obviously refitted) to work with, but then that depends on the battery type as some batteries cannot be brought down to a safe voltage as each battery is above 60v on its own.

Now i have seen them making a car safe and it involves them wearing face visors, rubber gloves, using a mad scientist probe thing, plugged into diagnostic equipment, paperwork filled out and signed for the order to work, plastic box things with padlocks on them once specific connectors are disconnected in the process of making safe, whole area is cordoned off with yellow and black chain and only folks with a certain level of ev training are then allowed to enter and of course they have to be ready in 1 of them hands with the specific plastic pole with a hook on the end at all times. It really looks quite a process before work is commenced on live circuits (or were live until the procedure is carried out to make safe)

Anyway he says engines are definitely the better thing to work on, simpler and safer, but that doesnt really matter as the powers that be have made up their mind that electric is the futire!

 

[Dickster]

It's not a joke.

After reading on the various EV forums about issues that others had with their EVs, I now carry in the boot of my EV a 10mm spanner, to disconnect and reconnect the 12V battery in case of any computer issues (the computer is powered by a 12V Lead-Acid wet battery, and not directly from the HV traction battery, and so disconnecting the 12V battery resets the computer, which is apparently the standard first step when dealing with onboard computer issues).

Luckily I didn't need to use it yet.

Just install an isolation switch.

 

[Dickster]

I would also argue that we’ve already reached - and probably passed - the pinnacle of ICE development. Without hybridisation they’re as efficient, powerful, and smooth as they’ll get. Even without electrification the pace of change has been slowing for some time. ICE are very mature technology, and improvements get smaller smaller over time.

I’m sure someone will say there should be more R&D on alternative fuels, which I dare say will continue regardless. Whether we’ll ever see widespread use of alternative fuels in passenger cars, I’m not sure - maybe for other vehicles, or for passenger cars designed for regular long distance driving - but I suspect the majority of cars will be electric for the foreseeable future.

Whilst we all have preferences, and in a period of change people like holding on to the familiar, the reality is that an EV is just as capable as an ICE engined car for 90%+ of journeys, for 90%+ of drivers. And no, charging infrastructure couldn’t cope with everyone switching overnight, but everyone won’t switch overnight.

I had an ipace for a test drive for a weekend and don’t agree with that. I had a lot of journeys planned, around 50 miles there and back each. And I constantly planned on my head the required range. I only had a 13a charger and therefore charging had to be done overnight. I had to split the journeys between Saturday and Sunday.

I’m a petrol head but must admit I did not want to take the car back. It drove great, and was very smooth and quiet. So I then spent a couple of days researching lease cars and just went round in circles. You just do not get enough car for the money. £60-70k for an ipace is absolute nuts. And I couldn’t find anything else.

We would really need a car with the space of an X5 (3 dogs in the family) and there is nothing out there reasonably priced. I’ve looked at the Q4 but the long range version is again too expensive. And not big enough. I also considered a small EV for local journeys, but again I struggled to find anything suitable for a decent price.

Realistically, an EV needs to have a range of at least 300 miles to take place of the main family car. And what is it with the current trend of putting the sports hatch back on suvs ? It takes away so much boot space.

EVs have a long way to go imho.

 

[grober]

So at work i was asking the ev specialist about repair times in regards to ic and ev, so he was saying that time for repairs for changing motors via engines is much and such the same as there is far more checks involved with an ev before a motor can be changed and its a very similair process to changing an ic engine, he also stated that parts are much much more expensive in an ev and when you work within the battery 3 people are needed until its made safe, there is a specific order in which the buzz bars have to be replaced to step down the battery from 800v down to a safe 60v (and obviously refitted) to work with, but then that depends on the battery type as some batteries cannot be brought down to a safe voltage as each battery is above 60v on its own.

Now i have seen them making a car safe and it involves them wearing face visors, rubber gloves, using a mad scientist probe thing, plugged into diagnostic equipment, paperwork filled out and signed for the order to work, plastic box things with padlocks on them once specific connectors are disconnected in the process of making safe, whole area is cordoned off with yellow and black chain and only folks with a certain level of ev training are then allowed to enter and of course they have to be ready in 1 of them hands with the specific plastic pole with a hook on the end at all times. It really looks quite a process before work is commenced on live circuits (or were live until the procedure is carried out to make safe)

Anyway he says engines are definitely the better thing to work on, simpler and safer, but that doesnt really matter as the powers that be have made up their mind that electric is the futire!

Glad you posted this because this puts your original post in perspective. It would make sense that any repair work that involves breaking into the HV battery pack itself would be extremely time-consuming from a safety point of view. Problem is many EV manufacturers have chosen to integrate their battery pack into the cars body structure which prohibits its rapid isolation and removal to be worked on in a specialist environment geared up for the routine handling of high-voltage equipment. EV design must become more modular in construction to permit much easier routine battery pack swapping at the dealership level with battery pack repair dealt with at more centralised specialist facilities.

 

[190]

A long time ago I was trained and authorised to carry out 11,000 volt switching in primary substations. The culture around high voltage work is careful planning and documentation. For every task a detailed program of work had to be produced before hand and signed off by at least two senior authorised persons. Then each step was ticked off as the job progressed. This level of caution was down to both the lethal voltage involved and the enormous energy that would be released in the event of a short circuit.

It sounds like a similar approach has been established for working on EV's. 600 Volts is potentially lethal and it's worse than AC as DC grabs hold of you hence the man standing by with an insulated stick. The battery also contains a huge amount of energy which could be a bomb in the event of a short circuit.

All who work on their own vehicles will have witnessed over the years, a growing trend for car manufacturers to almost completely disregard ease of maintenance in their designs making it time consuming and expensive, in some cases to a quite ridiculous extent. If they have applied the same approach to EV's then it's no wonder it takes 4 hours to make an EV safe to work on.

It ought to have been possible to design in a simple means of battery isolation to make an EV safe both for maintenance and in the event of a crash to protect emergency services personnel. Why haven't they done it.

 

[markjay]

Maintenance did get more complicated over time, and not just in terms of access to components, now that engine bays are crammed with additional emissions systems, electronics, wiring etc., but also in terms of special tools and diagnostic kit required to activate and calibrate various components. Even replacing a windscreen is no longer straightforward, if the car is equipped with cameras and sensors.

I remember when HIDs were first introduced, garages were warned that bulbs should only be replaced by trained technicians as there was danger-to-life.

The same applied to the HT leads of old, when the distributor was replaced with electronic ignition and before ignition packs became the norm.

But obviously, a 400-800v system in a car poses a major hazard to untrained personnel.

Also, on my EV, all of the HV wires are coloured bright orange, for obvious reasons. I wonder if there's an industry standard for that? If not, then I think there should be one.

 

[optimusprime]

I think its a cracking idea, to bring in these EV vehicles just when the grid is over run and some parts of England have to go without electric power . Its a bit like having a water shortage , and giving every one a free kettle .

 

[Deleted member 126251]

I would also argue that we’ve already reached - and probably passed - the pinnacle of ICE development. Without hybridisation they’re as efficient, powerful, and smooth as they’ll get. Even without electrification the pace of change has been slowing for some time. ICE are very mature technology, and improvements get smaller smaller over time.

I’m sure someone will say there should be more R&D on alternative fuels, which I dare say will continue regardless. Whether we’ll ever see widespread use of alternative fuels in passenger cars, I’m not sure - maybe for other vehicles, or for passenger cars designed for regular long distance driving - but I suspect the majority of cars will be electric for the foreseeable future.

Whilst we all have preferences, and in a period of change people like holding on to the familiar, the reality is that an EV is just as capable as an ICE engined car for 90%+ of journeys, for 90%+ of drivers. And no, charging infrastructure couldn’t cope with everyone switching overnight, but everyone won’t switch overnight.

The M138 4cyl 2.0L 421hp engine is a good example of what can still be done with ICE .....

I’m in favour of electric cars but it is all a long, long way from the utopian world of “no pollution”.

There are nearly 8 billion people (mostly in poor countries) on the planet who are mostly going to be using fossil fuels for a long time to come. Us rushing out to buy EVs which were made using fossil fuel energy is going to make little difference to the pollution problem. All the renewable energy equipment and all the buildings & factories they are made in are mostly all made with energy from fossil fuels.

Power stations are going to have to burn more fossil fuel to power all the EVs.

IMO all the virtue signallers with their EV’s are just fooling themselves.

Before anyone gets upset, I’m not saying that EV drivers are all virtue signallers - but there is a good cross section who want us to know that they are doing their bit to “save the planet”. A bit like those people who have to tell you that their dog is a “rescue dog”.