Cheap ride for EV users coming to an end ??

[markjay]

I think its a cracking idea, to bring in these EV vehicles just when the grid is over run and some parts of England have to go without electric power . Its a bit like having a water shortage , and giving every one a free kettle .

Agreed... and you're spot-on when you point-out that EVs won't work in areas where the power supply is unstable, and the same applies to switching from heating with gas boilers to heating with electricity.

Luckily I live in London, and we've only had one power cut in 30 years (the entire street was without power for several hours), but obviously this is not the case everywhere in the UK.

One can only hope that the 2030 deadline for purchase of new non-zero-exhaust-emissions vehicle will push the government to improve the national grid in areas where it is currently substandard before that date. If they don't manage it, then they may need to push back the deadline.

 

[markjay]

The M138 4cyl 2.0L 421hp engine is a good example of what can still be done with ICE .....

Agreed, though just to say that not everyone judges cars by engine power (and torque).

I replaced my 143 bhp W203 with a 156 bhp W204, and I've always been very happy with my cars.

I went for the least powerful variant of EV - single motor RWD - that supposedly does 8.5 sec 0-60, which is only 1 sec better than my W204. Even so, I've never tried flooring it.

The fact that EVs can accelerate like a bat-out-of-hell will definitely be attractive to some, and a colleague at work has a dual-motor Tesla with Ludicrous mode that does 2.8 sec 0-60, a figure that beats most supercars and sports bikes.

So yes, there's a market segment that will buy EVs because of their insane drag-racing performance, but I suspect that - like with AMG and M-Power cars and RS etc - its a niche market.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I had an ipace for a test drive for a weekend and don’t agree with that.

Don’t agree with which bit?

 

[Deleted member 126251]

Agreed, though just to say that not everyone judges cars by engine power (and torque).

..................r Tesla with Ludicrous mode that does 2.8 sec 0-60, a figure that beats most supercars and sports bikes.

So yes, there's a market segment that will buy EVs because of their insane drag-racing performance, but I suspect that - like with AMG and M-Power cars and RS etc - its a niche market.

My comment on the MB engine related to the fact that there is still devepopment that can happen on ICE and it is far from the end of the road.

Yep the Tesla is quick but after a run or 2 in Ludicrous mode the Tesla driver has to walk home. The supercar owner will still have plenty petrol to get him home.

 

[markjay]

My comment on the MB engine related to the fact that there is still devepopment that can happen on ICE and it is far from the end of the road.

Yep the Tesla is quick but after a run or 2 in Ludicrous mode the Tesla driver has to walk home. The supercar owner will still have plenty petrol to get him home.

I think that the issue for ICE cars isn't how to extract more power from the same displacement, tuners do it all the time.

The issue is with emissions control systems.... we're at the stage where every tiny progress is now costing a fortune to develop, and increases engine complexity while decreasing reliability.

For Diesel engines, EU6 proved to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Car manufacturers first resorted to cheating, and now relay on complex Urea injection systems and NOx sensors that often fail and are very expensive to repair. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to buy an EU6 Diesel car, and I would certainly not recommend an EU7 Diesel cars, if and when these are made.

Petrol is not entirely at the end of the road just yet, as far as reducing emissions is concerned, but it's definitely getting there fast, and I suspect that EU 7 will kill it off, too.

(Of course, one could argue that there's nothing wrong with ICE emissions as they currently stand, and that we don't really need to reduce them any further. This is a separate discussion, however, and in any event, that boat has sailed, i.e. there's now international agreement that ICE emissions are bad for human health and for the environment, so reopening this debate is probably a futile effort anyway)

 

[Deleted member 126251]

I think that the issue for ICE cars isn't how to extract more power from the same displacement, tuners do it all the time.

The issue is with emissions control systems.... we're at the stage where every tiny progress is now costing a fortune to develop, and increases engine complexity while decreasing reliability.

For Diesel engines, EU6 proved to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Car manufacturers first resorted to cheating, and now relay on complex Urea injection systems and NOx sensors that often fail and are very expensive to repair. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to buy an EU6 Diesel car, and I would certainly not recommend an EU7 Diesel cars, if and when these are made.

Petrol is not entirely at the end of the road just yet, as far as reducing emissions is concerned, but it's definitely getting there fast, and I suspect that EU 7 will kill it off, too.

(Of course, one could argue that there's nothing wrong with ICE emissions as they currently stand, and that we don't really need to reduce them any further. This is a separate discussion, however, and in any event, that boat has sailed, i.e. there's now international agreement that ICE emissions are bad for human health and for the environment, so reopening this debate is probably a futile effort anyway)

Agree - however ICE emissions are a drop in the ocean. I believe that all transport is <30% of total emissions in Europe. So even if all ICE transport was eliminated there is still teh remaining 70% to worry about.

CO2 emissions from cars: facts and figures (infographics) | Topics | European Parliament

Ever wondered how much CO2 is emitted by cars or whether electric vehicles really are a cleaner alternative? Check out our infographics to find out.

www.europarl.europa.eu

 

[markjay]

Agree - however ICE emissions are a drop in the ocean. I believe that all transport is <30% of total emissions in Europe. So even if all ICE transport was eliminated there is still teh remaining 70% to worry about.

CO2 emissions from cars: facts and figures (infographics) | Topics | European Parliament

Ever wondered how much CO2 is emitted by cars or whether electric vehicles really are a cleaner alternative? Check out our infographics to find out.

www.europarl.europa.eu

Yes, when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions etc.

But there's no denying that ICE cars are the main cause for poor air quality in busy city centres.

EVs won't fix the planet, agreed, but they will reduce harmful toxic exhaust emissions in urban areas.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I struggle to understand why so many people expect an EV to be without compromise, and to equal the best of breed of any other model and drivetrain.

Range of a diesel E-Class, the towing ability of a GLE, acceleration of an AMG GT, simplicity of a 190, the refueling time of a Fortwo, cost of an A-Class, etc.

Generally speaking, we don’t expect ICE vehicles to do that and without any level of compromise - so why do we expect an EV to do it, apart from bias?

We don’t say the Fortwo is rubbish because it be can’t driven from Glasgow to London without stopping, or that a diesel E class is rubbish because they’re slow, etc.

Just like we have accepted a degree of compromise in ICE vehicles then we will eventually do the same with EVs. We’ll accept that EVs are for every use case!

I have the perfect do-anything car with the best blend of capabilities and compromise for me. Others would have the polar opposite view. That’s OK. It’s OK for EVs too.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

I struggle to understand why so many people expect an EV to be without compromise, and to equal the best of breed of any other model and drivetrain.

Range of a diesel E-Class, the towing ability of a GLE, acceleration of an AMG GT, simplicity of a 190, the refueling time of a Fortwo, cost of an A-Class, etc.

Generally speaking, we don’t expect ICE vehicles to do that and without any level of compromise - so why do we expect an EV to do it, apart from bias?

We don’t say the Fortwo is rubbish because it be can’t driven from Glasgow to London without stopping, or that a diesel E class is rubbish because they’re slow, etc.

Just like we have accepted a degree of compromise in ICE vehicles then we will eventually do the same with EVs. We’ll accept that EVs are for every use case!

I have the perfect do-anything car with the best blend of capabilities and compromise for me. Others would have the polar opposite view. That’s OK. It’s OK for EVs too.

If you look at previous posts from these people many of them are just anti-everything.

The awkward squad.

 

[ChipChop]

But there's no denying that ICE cars are the main cause for poor air quality in busy city centres.

EVs won't fix the planet, agreed, but they will reduce harmful toxic exhaust emissions in urban areas.

Hence why many city centres are pedestrianised and have been for many decades. Schemes such a park n ride also around for decades.

Maybe London should follow suit. London has the UK's best electric public transport underground system so there is no need for any private cars in London at all. EV or ICE.

Ban them all and watch the exodus to the free North. Protecting the urban environment and levelling up the regions of the UK.

As if eh.

 

[Tonye]

Ban them all and watch the exodus to the free North

NO, STOP, its bad enough when they come up for the holidays.

 

[markjay]

Hence why many city centres are pedestrianised and have been for many decades. Schemes such a park n ride also around for decades.

Maybe London should follow suit. London has the UK's best electric public transport underground system so there is no need for any private cars in London at all. EV or ICE.

Ban them all and watch the exodus to the free North. Protecting the urban environment and levelling up the regions of the UK.

As if eh.

That would be my preferred solution as well.

- Invest in clean, efficient, and affordable public transport system. Electric buses, electric taxis, trams, light railways, wtc.

- Close all city centres for private cars (disabled and tradesman etc exempted).

- Convert as many areas as possible to pedestrian zones.

- Tax the cr@p out of any city dweller who insists on owning a private car and does not have a valid reason.

London is a great place to start. ULEZ is nonsense, it doesn't go far enough.

But, as you can imagine, my views do not resonate well on motoring forums....

 

[Tonye]

All good ideas except the tax bit, just a very hefty charge to use any private vehicle would suffice, say £100 per day. All good as long as public transport prices fall dramatically.

 

[st13phil]

I struggle to understand why so many people expect an EV to be without compromise, and to equal the best of breed of any other model and drivetrain.

Range of a diesel E-Class, the towing ability of a GLE, acceleration of an AMG GT, simplicity of a 190, the refueling time of a Fortwo, cost of an A-Class, etc.

Fair comment - to an extent.

It's no accident that Tesla started their production with "halo" models as they can command a higher price and act as a showcase, and by doing so they have to some extent created expectations regarding EV performance and range. They also managed to secure significant subsidies that reduce the direct cost of the product to the consumer, but even then it remains out of reach for the
"man in the street" who is more concerned about cost and ease of use.

The more mundane products (Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, etc.) just don't deliver in terms of cost or range - except in narrow use cases - and remember that the Leaf has been around for 12 years now. It's arguable that EV prices should fall as volume increases, but my suspicion is that unless / until battery tech undergoes a major revolution, there is a pretty high floor cost that isn't going to shift downwards and may even shift upwards as demand for the raw materials increases.

 

[Tonye]

say £100 per day.

Within CITY of London, CITY of Manchester, NOT "Greater".

 

[Dickster]

Don’t agree with which bit?

Sorry, the final para.

As I say I was sad to give it back. But the two big barriers remain, EVs are far too expensive and the charging network is poor. I can live with the charging network for local journeys and charge at home, but there’s the cost….

 

[markjay]

The more mundane products (Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, etc.) just don't deliver in terms of cost or range - except in narrow use cases - and remember that the Leaf has been around for 12 years now. It's arguable that EV prices should fall as volume increases, but my suspicion is that unless / until battery tech undergoes a major revolution, there is a pretty high floor cost that isn't going to shift downwards and may even shift upwards as demand for the raw materials increases.

Yes, but we needn't look for the panacea from day one.

There are very many city cars at current, that are used mostly for short journeys, e.g. school runs and going to the shops, and do under 2-3k miles a year.

For these, EVs with a range of 50 to 100 miles will be ideal. Charge once a week...

And there are far more people living in cities and doing low annual mileage, than there are people living in rural areas, or people who are nationwide travelling salespeople etc.

We can certainly start with those who can use these more-modest EVs. This in itself will have a significant impact on air quality in urban areas. And, over time, we'll also cater for the others.

Booby Dazzler's point was that some people seem to maintain that until the 'prefect' EV comes along, i.e. one that is cheap to buy new and can match a petrol car for mileage on a single charge, no one should have an EV... which makes no sense.

 

[st13phil]

Yes, but we needn't look for the panacea from day one.

There are very many city cars at current, that are used mostly for short journeys, e.g. school runs and going to the shops, and do under 2-3k miles a year.

For these, EVs with a range of 50 to 100 miles will be ideal. Charge once a week...

I completely agree that there are viable use cases for the current crop of EV's, and good for those where they work.

The issue is that many of those who exist in the cohort for which they're viable (present company excepted, of course ) refuse to acknowledge that there is a much larger cohort for whom they are not viable. And those who do find them viable are being subsidised (through grants and untaxed "fuel") by the majority who don't.

As an Engineer looking at it from an holistic perspective, EV's address one issue - local pollutants - at the cost of many other demerits, which are routinely glossed over. Sadly, I'm not convinced by many of the arguments put forward that they are a "solution" to the problem of personal transport which seem to be based more on hope than Engineering.

 

[markjay]

I completely agree that there are viable use cases for the current crop of EV's, and good for those where they work.

The issue is that many of those who exist in the cohort for which they're viable (present company excepted, of course ) refuse to acknowledge that there is a much larger cohort for whom they are not viable. And those who do find them viable are being subsidised (through grants and untaxed "fuel") by the majority who don't.

Agreed, those living in rural areas for example, won't manage well with any of the current EVs, and the contribution of their Landies (and other vehicles) to poor air quality is irrelevant, given that their emissions are released mostly among uninhabited hills and meadows.

As for the taxation argument... I agree and disagree. I agree that we should not be financially incentivising use of EVs. But at the same time, the argument that 'the others are paying for it' is a moot point in any democratic country - there are very many things the government is spending money on, that some of us are unhappy about - from cosmetic surgery on the NHS through Legal Aid for convicted terrorists and to HS2 - but this is just how the system works, the government decides on its priorities, and they are spending our money on them - it's not a EV issue as such.

As an Engineer looking at it from an holistic perspective, EV's address one issue - local pollutants - at the cost of many other demerits, which are routinely glossed over. Sadly, I'm not convinced by many of the arguments put forward that they are a "solution" to the problem of personal transport which seem to be based more on hope than Engineering.

Agreed, as I said before, a 'green car' is an oxymoron.

The only way to save the planet - to my mind - is to have less private cars.

It's not just about emissions, it's also about the production, shipping, and end-of-life of these cars, plus the energy production infrastructure required to keep them moving - it's a very dirty business.

The difficulty with this though isn't just people not willing to give-up their cars - but also the significant detrimental impact on the world's economy and people's livelihoods across the globe, is we were to significantly curtail new car production.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Sorry, the final para.

You mean me having found the car with the best blend of capability and compromise for me?

As I say I was sad to give it back. But the two big barriers remain, EVs are far too expensive and the charging network is poor. I can live with the charging network for local journeys and charge at home, but there’s the cost….

For 90% of journeys, for 90% of drivers an EV and our charging infrastructure is sufficient. Of course the 10% that don’t fit might regularly do longer journeys in more rural areas and EV might not be right for them for a long time.

Most EVs (by volume) are new or relatively new, and unfortunately new cars are expensive, and thanks to the weird market conditions relatively new cars are even more expensive. Technology gets cheaper, cars depreciate and market conditions will ease, and so things will change.