Drivers to be banned from picking up mobile phones

[AW8]

Don’t leave on account of my post Tim. It was not directed at you.

Nor mine.

I’m out of this thread. When a concern for safety generates “holier than thou” accusations instead of even an apparent modicum of understanding, it’s time to worry. I’ll just have to be even more alert to those who consider themselves above such concerns. Knowing there are so many such people on our roads who are otherwise completely caring has been a wake up call for me.

Shame. I thought your post 111 added massive balance & clarified how you identify as a driver & a member here. Those open to legal phone use also showing balanced content.

 

[AW8]

The guidelines say that calls while driving (using hands-free obviously) should be kept to essential and short conversations (e.g. calling your spouse on the way back from work to let him/her know that you will be late due to being held-up in a traffic jam etc).

Without getting into a debate about the subjective terms "essential" & "short"....Such guidelines would be sensible & acceptable to many. I would not have major issues with such "guidance". I enjoy driving & take some pride in it. This thread has been useful to highlight that phones, in car technology, & many other factors can be distractions.

 

[markjay]

Without getting into a debate about the subjective terms "essential" & "short"....Such guidelines might be sensible & acceptable to many. I would not have any major issues with such "guidance" if brought in. I enjoy driving & take pride in it. This thread has been useful to highlight that phones, in car technology, & many other factors can be distractions.

If nothing else eee

These guidelines have been in effect since the original 'hands-free' legislation was announced over 20 years ago. And it is often used by police when prosecuting drivers who were involved in an accident. Though as I pointed-out in a previous post, drivers are unlikely to be prosecuted for making calls using a hands-free kit unless they are actually involved in an accident. Which is why it isn't well known or fully understood. Many drivers wrongly assume that the law permits them to freely have telephone conversations while driving using a hands-free kit - but this is not the case.

To clarify, I have not made any comments regarding the merit (or lack of) of using a mobile phone at the wheel, other than to explain the legal position as I understand it.

 

[AW8]

CThese guidelines have been in effect since the original 'hands-free' legislation was announced over 20 years ago. And it is often used by police when prosecuting drivers who were involved in an accident. Though as I pointed-out in a previous post, drivers are unlikely to be prosecuted for making calls using a hands-free kit unless they are actually involved in an accident. Which is why it isn't well known or fully understood. Many drivers wrongly assume that the law permits them to freely have telephone conversations while driving using a hands-free kit - but this is not the case.

To clarify, I have not made any comments regarding the merit (or lack of) of using a mobile phone at the wheel, other than to explain the legal position as I understand it.

Are you referring to CPS Code for Crown prosecutors charging standard guidelines ?

 

[markjay]

This is the original legislation introduced in 2003 (finally found it...):

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003

These regulations amend the Construction and Use Regulations 1986 by inserting a new regulation 110.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[AW8]

Thanks . If you find specific guidelines you referred to please share (if appropriate).

 

[markjay]

Are you referring to CPS Code for Crown prosecutors charging standard guidelines ?

Not sure about either, but this is what the police say:

'...It's important to realise that even if you aren't contravening the mobile phone legislation, if operating any device whether it's hand-held or not, affects your driving, you can still commit offences such as not being in proper control of your vehicle, careless or even dangerous driving.... Note that if you were involved in an accident and your telephone records showed that you were using your mobile at the time of the incident, even via voice activation, it could have serious legal implications.'

Q955: What is the law in relation to using a mobile phone or other hand-held device whilst driving?

And this is the advice from the AA:

'....there's worldwide evidence that using any sort of phone has a considerable effect on accident risk, and while it's not a specific offence, using a hands-free phone can have a major bearing on whether or not you could be found guilty of careless or dangerous driving.

If you need to make or take a call

• Stop or leave it to go to voicemail – even if you have a hands-free phone.

•If you must talk, and have a hands-free phone, keep conversations short and simple or say that you’ll find a safe and legal place to stop and phone back...'

UK Mobile Phone Driving Laws & Penalties | The AA

Understand the law on using your mobile phone while driving, including texting, navigation and hands-free. Plus penalties for using your phone illegally.

www.theaa.com

 

[AW8]

Not sure about either, but this is what the police say:

'...It's important to realise that even if you aren't contravening the mobile phone legislation, if operating any device whether it's hand-held or not, affects your driving, you can still commit offences such as not being in proper control of your vehicle, careless or even dangerous driving.... Note that if you were involved in an accident and your telephone records showed that you were using your mobile at the time of the incident, even via voice activation, it could have serious legal implications.'

Q955: What is the law in relation to using a mobile phone or other hand-held device whilst driving?

And this is the advice from the AA:

'....there's worldwide evidence that using any sort of phone has a considerable effect on accident risk, and while it's not a specific offence, using a hands-free phone can have a major bearing on whether or not you could be found guilty of careless or dangerous driving.

If you need to make or take a call

• Stop or leave it to go to voicemail – even if you have a hands-free phone.

•If you must talk, and have a hands-free phone, keep conversations short and simple or say that you’ll find a safe and legal place to stop and phone back...'

UK Mobile Phone Driving Laws & Penalties | The AA

Understand the law on using your mobile phone while driving, including texting, navigation and hands-free. Plus penalties for using your phone illegally.

www.theaa.com

Nothing new there of legal weight. A misunderstanding...I had initially perceived you may have been part quoting future legislation &/or guidance - Thanks anyway.

 

[markjay]

Nothing new there of legal weight. A misunderstanding...I had initially perceived you may have been part quoting future legislation &/or guidance - Thanks anyway.

Indeed nothing new... I was just pointing-out that even if talking on the phone using hands-free kit, drivers involved in a crash could still find themselves being prosecuted for driving without due car or attention or dangerous driving (due to being distracted by the call). This has always been the case, both before and after the current legislation was introduced in 2003.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

Yes Really !

I have many examples I can give but no point in me sharing them as I have no doubt you would be entirely dismissive of all of them. I justify to myself btw.

Ironic that motoring bodies also sell in car hands free kits & satnav !!!

I think the RAC still sell road Atlas's though !

Do you have a motoring body ?

You appear to be getting annoyed...I just checked my fingers (but lost count at two). Thanks for the capability validation though.

ONE MORE TIME - I AM NOT SAYING IN CAR TECH OR PHONES DON'T CAUSE DISTRACTION


Thread issue here not Common Sense but more a reluctance to find Common Ground


Members on here have cars crammed with tech. I can agree that sensible use of this is key but this is 2020. I no longer subscribe to the notion of driving along whilst balancing a road atlas & looking for the next lay-by or payphone if I need to make an important call.

I am not some simple child driving around with my phone glued to my ear. I am capable of sensible reasoned discussion. Its is ironic you seem to be arguing about legal activity when the thread is about proposed changes in 2021 & which I comply with already.


Back in post 70 I said ........
"I could expand more, but sense you might not be open to considering views at variance to yours"

Hmm

You are now becoming disingenuous and deflecting by bringing in other issues (satnav, paper maps etc). Doesn't It make sense to sell a phone mount (better than nothing) if handsfree is legal?

You are arguing the case for chatting on hands free while "supposedly" in control of a moving car. There is rising evidence of accients happening while people were on the phone. Damn right I'm not going to agree with you or anyone that it is a good thing. I've been at accident scenes and seen the human carnage in accidents (was a copper) and anything that will reduce that gets a big tick from me!

Staying with the "horse to water" analogy, "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind and it seems we are set not to agree on handsfree. Be safe.

PS I never get angry - I enjoy a good debate and going head to head with me, is like wrestling a pig in mud. The pig has fun and you get dirty.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

................It’s those who believe themselves to be really good drivers who are the greatest worry - they’re not aware of their shortcomings so do nothing about them. They believe that their driving is good enough to be able to chat on the phone without impairment.

Classic "Dunning Kruger" effect at work. Quoting D&K ........

“Those with limited knowledge in a domain suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it,”

 

[markjay]

I think it may be helpful to understand the relationship between the effect on the driver of talking over the phone while driving, and the law.

There is no doubt that talking over the phone while driving is a distraction. A considerable amount of research has been done on this (perhaps because it is not too difficult to research it in a lab using a driving simulator). The evidence is that talking on the phone is significantly more distracting than talking to a passenger, and in some cases the driver's performance fell below that of a driver who is over the limit.

There's a good explanation too, and it is that when talking to a passenger the other person is seeing and experiencing the same environmental conditions as the driver, and the driver will therefore have no issues with pausing or with changing the pace of the conservation to allow allocating of more cognitive resources to the traffic conditions on the road as and when required, while when talking to person that does not share the driving experience, the driver will be inclined to maintain a constant level of engagement in the conversation which will come at the expense of cognitive resources that should have been temporarily allocated to the changing driving conditions.

That said... before we single-out drivers who talk on the phone, we should acknowledge that there are potentially quite a few distractions in any car. The infotainment system and/or satnav is one. A parent alone in the car with a baby or a toddler, or a pet, can all cause distractions. As can other personal circumstances - not having enough sleep, being worried about a range of issues, being unwell, being in poor mental health or state of mind, the list is long.

At current the law leaves it to the driver's discretion how such potential distractions should be managed, and when they feel that they are not fit to drive.

None of these are illegal in itself (other than for professional drivers), but they can all be used to establish guilt or to impose a harsher sentence in the event of a crash.

And, as pointed-out, this isn't new - the legal position regarding talking over the phone is exactly the same as adjusting the radio has been since cars were fitted with radios.... it is not illegal to adjust the radio, but if the driver is involved in a crash while adjusting the radio, it will be considered a distraction. This is specifically listed in the CPS Prosecution Guidelines (as is 'talking to a passenger') in the list of distractions that can bring about a charge of dangerous driving.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

There is research that the brain can only process a limited number of activities at the same time (and it is a low number in the region of 5 IIRC). Apparently the brain needs most of it's capacity to safely drive a car.

There is that test where your are asked to count how many times a basket ball player bounces a ball. While the video footage is running and you are counting, a guy in a gorilla costume runs through the scene. You simply do not see the gorilla!!

Even the boys on TG had a go trying to do mental arithmetic and answer questions while driving. IIRC, they could not do both properly at the same time.

 

[flowrider]

At least when we are all forced into fully autonomous vehicles we will be able to talk on the phone

 

[flowrider]

There is research that the brain can only process a limited number of activities at the same time (and it is a low number in the region of 5 IIRC). Apparently the brain needs most of it's capacity to safely drive a car.

There is that test where your are asked to count how many times a basket ball player bounces a ball. While the video footage is running and you are counting, a guy in a gorilla costume runs through the scene. You simply do not see the gorilla!!

Even the boys on TG had a go trying to do mental arithmetic and answer questions while driving. IIRC, they could not do both properly at the same time.

So in order to be safe drivers nobody can think about anything else when they are driving? So no thinking about holidays, work, family, tonights football........the list goes on.

 

[markjay]

So in order to be safe drivers nobody can think about anything else when they are driving? So no thinking about holidays, work, family, tonights football........the list goes on.

Correct. At least not if it can be demonstrated in court that this is what the driver was doing while the accident occurred.

We do have calls-logs on mobile phones, but we don't have thought-logs for people's minds... so if the driver is not concentrating on a road ahead or is distracted by other thought then he or she are a less-safe driver than one who does focus on the road, but there's not much anyone can do about it because the police and CPS cannot prove what the driver was thinking of at the time. Unless, of course, the driver admits that their mind was distracted by thinking about holidays, work, family, football, etc, in which case they'll get done for the crash.

 

[davymead]

Do you know how many RTA’s were caused in 2019 whilst the driver was juggling 15 red snooker balls?

Zero.

Obviously completely safe.

You sure ?......

 

[Deleted member 126251]

So in order to be safe drivers nobody can think about anything else when they are driving? So no thinking about holidays, work, family, tonights football........the list goes on.

Disingenous arguments like you have presented deserve no response.

 

[flowrider]

Disingenous arguments like you have presented deserve no response.

No response required but thank you anyway for responding

 

[Stratman]

I started this thread with the best of intentions.
Sadly the children have taken over.