Numpties then ain’t they?
On a more serious note, I’m surprised RBR didn’t have legal council with them.
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On a more serious note, I’m surprised RBR didn’t have legal council with them.
Dryce
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Well suppose LH's tyres had degraded and MV had passed him say at lap 53 and then Latiffi hits the barrier and LH comes in for fresh rubber while MV stays out .....
If Mr Masi had then followed the same approach to ending the Safety Car period ......
The only tangible difference at this point would have been the additional level of histrionics from Mr Horner and the anticipation of waiting for Dr Marko to make some of his more incisive comments.
Doodle
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Not really. Having your legal team turn up on site to press your case with the stewards there and then is pretty strong arm tactics. Their involvement is usually the preserve of CAS and written appeals after the event.
grober
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Stewards dismiss Mercedes’ Abu Dhabi Grand Prix protests, as team lodge intention to appeal | Formula 1®
The fundamental concept of deploying a safety car to prevent further accidents is of paramount importance. And to that end racing is essentially suspended. It's what happens during period of safety car deployment that's the problem. Effectively a different "race" is started in which certain racing realities/ rules extant till then change completely. The safety hazard removed, there then follows the difficult problem of transitioning back to the original set of realities/ rules and this is beset with regulation open to interpretation. In this case although the regulations may well have been at the discretion of the race director what he failed to do was to transition back to the racing situation pre -accident which in effect changed the result. That's not in the spirit of the racing safety rules as I'm pretty sure Charlie Whiting would have wished.
The fundamental concept of deploying a safety car to prevent further accidents is of paramount importance. And to that end racing is essentially suspended. It's what happens during period of safety car deployment that's the problem. Effectively a different "race" is started in which certain racing realities/ rules extant till then change completely. The safety hazard removed, there then follows the difficult problem of transitioning back to the original set of realities/ rules and this is beset with regulation open to interpretation. In this case although the regulations may well have been at the discretion of the race director what he failed to do was to transition back to the racing situation pre -accident which in effect changed the result. That's not in the spirit of the racing safety rules as I'm pretty sure Charlie Whiting would have wished.
Dryce
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Numpties then ain’t they?
On a more serious note, I’m surprised RBR didn’t have legal council with them.
Allegedly MB's legal counsel today was a guest and just happened to be there.
Ah, ok didn’t know that.
The legal council may have said nothing…
Doodle
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I think we both know that's not likely. If your counsel isn't speaking (directly or indirectly), then they're just there to intimidate which is even worse form. You don't get to attend a steward's enquiry on a jolly.
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Dryce
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The legal advisor was supposedly attending the event as a guest - but presumably turned out to be quite useful on site when the unfortunate situation arose.
And intimidation? Well maybe that is what you would feel. Not everybody in business is intimidated by a lawyer being present. It's not unusual in a lot of sectors - and my experience of dealing with sports management is that there are a lot of legal advisors about.
It's notable in the published response to the protest earlier that the wording quoted from Red Bull attempts to take a legal position on the wording of the regulations. I'm guessing they took advice. It's also notable that the race director's position looks rather less than legal - more like a personal opinion.
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I suppose any safety car (SC) period changes the face of the race. For instance, if Max been 11 seconds behind beforehand, but with no lapped cars in front of him, he would still have caught up under the SC - ‘gifted’ one might say.
It seems unfair that Lewis had had to negotiate lapped cars but Max was gifted them being cleared, yes, but by the same token Lewis had worked hard to build up the 11 seconds lead, and Max was gifted the ‘catch up’. Therefore the ‘unlapping’ as it happened, - ie only the cars between MV and LH - wasn’t really relevant, MV would receive a gift either way.
What was relevant, I believe, was that had all the lapped cars been given the chance to pass the SC before it came in, it would have meant there would have been no time for final racing lap, and the result would have been different.
Either way, it was a completely unsatisfactory way for the WDC to be decided. I admit I say that as one who wanted an 8th title for LH, and yes, there may be holes in my arguments because of this.
However, should the SC rules be the same as the VSC rules re speed, ie reduce speed by X%, to maintain the gap? One reason for the SC bunching the cars together is given as it being safer for all the cars to pass the incident together and more slowly - but IMO, allowing lapped cars to chase round the lap to catch up with the pack contradicts that...
Phew. I’m glad I’m not the Race Director, but have to say I wish Masi wasn’t, either!
It seems unfair that Lewis had had to negotiate lapped cars but Max was gifted them being cleared, yes, but by the same token Lewis had worked hard to build up the 11 seconds lead, and Max was gifted the ‘catch up’. Therefore the ‘unlapping’ as it happened, - ie only the cars between MV and LH - wasn’t really relevant, MV would receive a gift either way.
What was relevant, I believe, was that had all the lapped cars been given the chance to pass the SC before it came in, it would have meant there would have been no time for final racing lap, and the result would have been different.
Either way, it was a completely unsatisfactory way for the WDC to be decided. I admit I say that as one who wanted an 8th title for LH, and yes, there may be holes in my arguments because of this.
However, should the SC rules be the same as the VSC rules re speed, ie reduce speed by X%, to maintain the gap? One reason for the SC bunching the cars together is given as it being safer for all the cars to pass the incident together and more slowly - but IMO, allowing lapped cars to chase round the lap to catch up with the pack contradicts that...
Phew. I’m glad I’m not the Race Director, but have to say I wish Masi wasn’t, either!
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Once upon a time, a decade after James Hunt was crowned F1 Champion in a very wet race in Japan, there was the final race of the World Sportscar Championship was played out in similar conditions. Within the chaos, my Jaguar was credited with 2nd place instead of 3rd which elevated its driver to World Champion by one point. So in late 1986, just a few days after arriving home, I was on a plane back to Japan with the evidence of my lap sheets for the race.
Prior to the advent of the 747 400, there were no non stop flights to Tokyo. The polar route via Anchorage was the quickest despite having to cross a number of date lines. I was in Japan for just 14 hours before the return trip with my head completely upside down due to a combination of jet lag and the fact we lost the appeal and were not Champions in 1986. We would win the championships in 87 and 88 fair and square.
So who was the driver who was 'accidental' World Champion for a few days?
Yesterdays drivers steward Derek Warwick.
It's easy to criticise the referee, the system, the race director or whoever when the the result is not what we want.
I would only point out that there are some very experienced people making the calls.
Apart from Philipe Massa, how many other people have the experience of driving F1 cars at a top level and being 'momentary' World Champion?
Prior to the advent of the 747 400, there were no non stop flights to Tokyo. The polar route via Anchorage was the quickest despite having to cross a number of date lines. I was in Japan for just 14 hours before the return trip with my head completely upside down due to a combination of jet lag and the fact we lost the appeal and were not Champions in 1986. We would win the championships in 87 and 88 fair and square.
So who was the driver who was 'accidental' World Champion for a few days?
Yesterdays drivers steward Derek Warwick.
It's easy to criticise the referee, the system, the race director or whoever when the the result is not what we want.
I would only point out that there are some very experienced people making the calls.
Apart from Philipe Massa, how many other people have the experience of driving F1 cars at a top level and being 'momentary' World Champion?
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I would dare to say not even Philips Massa, as while it looked (to his Dad, anyway) that he had clinched it, the fat lady hadn’t sung, in that the race wasn’t over until they’d all finished.
But I agree, it was probably even worse for him than yesterday for Lewis, because Lewis and MB could see this coming during the preceding couple of SC laps, whereas it was completely unexpected that Glok’s car would expire yards from the finish.
By the way, Mactech, how’s the book coming on?
But I agree, it was probably even worse for him than yesterday for Lewis, because Lewis and MB could see this coming during the preceding couple of SC laps, whereas it was completely unexpected that Glok’s car would expire yards from the finish.
By the way, Mactech, how’s the book coming on?
Darrell
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Par for the course it seems these days.
err....about 10%
When you see the quality of writing like this, you may understand why I have some trepidation.
TREMAYNE: Fearless and magnificent – Why F1’s newest champion Verstappen has shown his true colours in 2021 | Formula 1®
Max Verstappen loves a fight. Which is just as well, because although he had the best car in the field for most of the season, his attacking style at times ensured that taking his first World Championship, and stealing the crown away from such a seasoned warrior as Lewis Hamilton, was never as...
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Knee jerk comment here, but Christian Horner has just lost every bit of respect I (might have) had for him, if the report that he has, even jokingly, offered Lafiti a lifetime’s supply of Red Bull is true.
Have a uncomfortable feeling that Liberty's marketing department were somewhat involved in driving the inconsistent decisions because of the great god - viewer numbers. The simple fact that the sport decimates its own rules on a whim means I shall not be following F1 anymore until they sort out fair racing according to a fixed set of rules - enough is enough and I am voting with my feet.
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You have far more experience of racing than anyone else on here. Would you care to share your opinion on whether the result should stand?
GrahamT
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Excellent piece. Thanks for posting.err....about 10%
When you see the quality of writing like this, you may understand why I have some trepidation.
TREMAYNE: Fearless and magnificent – Why F1’s newest champion Verstappen has shown his true colours in 2021 | Formula 1®
Max Verstappen loves a fight. Which is just as well, because although he had the best car in the field for most of the season, his attacking style at times ensured that taking his first World Championship, and stealing the crown away from such a seasoned warrior as Lewis Hamilton, was never as...
fabes
MB Enthusiast
Shambles
Question - had the lapped cars been left in place, wouldn't they have known to get out of the way and within a straight or two, MV would have passed them all and been up against the rear of Lewis in what we'd have to had accepted as fairer...?
I know they were still in their own races, but Masi reminding all 'other' teams of the need to "let leading cars past under blue's without unnecessary delay" would have been coded enough to ensure that no driver became the villain in holding MV up. They would have all complied with that, or stood out for public condemnation
It would have been a little contrived but within the rules and, like it or lump it, MV will have been on Lewis's tail legitimately within a third of a lap and most probably would have made it past before the end of the lap to win. I wanted LH to win but don't begrudge MV his win on a personal level, hard racer or not.
Aside from that, Jenson made a good point in the post race sessions to discuss
Teams challenging and lobbying the Race Director (whoever it is next season - and it should change ) MUST stop. It makes for an embarrassing spectacle.
The RD should apply the rules and the decisions of the race stewards and the teams should not whinge - its like watching footballers racing up to the referee.
Explain the in race decisions publically via the screens and have post race reviews with Teams if necessary, but not during a race.
PS I do think LH should have been told allow MV to catch up, but not pass him after the off track excursion, to only again drive away into the distance, hopefully.....
PPS - I do also think that Mercedes should be the bigger team and drop the case.
MV has a tainted world championship - the fans and the public know this.
MB have the moral victory here, even if they might not have had the scenario I outline above been allowed to play out.
Lewis could even adopt a very British / Carry On slant via humour and concede that has has seven, so he'll "give Max one....
"
Question - had the lapped cars been left in place, wouldn't they have known to get out of the way and within a straight or two, MV would have passed them all and been up against the rear of Lewis in what we'd have to had accepted as fairer...?
I know they were still in their own races, but Masi reminding all 'other' teams of the need to "let leading cars past under blue's without unnecessary delay" would have been coded enough to ensure that no driver became the villain in holding MV up. They would have all complied with that, or stood out for public condemnation
It would have been a little contrived but within the rules and, like it or lump it, MV will have been on Lewis's tail legitimately within a third of a lap and most probably would have made it past before the end of the lap to win. I wanted LH to win but don't begrudge MV his win on a personal level, hard racer or not.
Aside from that, Jenson made a good point in the post race sessions to discuss
Teams challenging and lobbying the Race Director (whoever it is next season - and it should change ) MUST stop. It makes for an embarrassing spectacle.
The RD should apply the rules and the decisions of the race stewards and the teams should not whinge - its like watching footballers racing up to the referee.
Explain the in race decisions publically via the screens and have post race reviews with Teams if necessary, but not during a race.
PS I do think LH should have been told allow MV to catch up, but not pass him after the off track excursion, to only again drive away into the distance, hopefully.....
PPS - I do also think that Mercedes should be the bigger team and drop the case.
MV has a tainted world championship - the fans and the public know this.
MB have the moral victory here, even if they might not have had the scenario I outline above been allowed to play out.
Lewis could even adopt a very British / Carry On slant via humour and concede that has has seven, so he'll "give Max one....
"
