Had a RTA in my truck today...whos at fault

[davidjpowell]

I agree any vehicle can use all of the road but must do so with "Due care and attention" If a vehicle is in an RTA and on the oncoming carriageway, then accident investigators always look at that vehicle first as it carries the most suspicion. As already pointed out the driver emerging from the junction has a duty of care to check the space he is pulling into is clear so my bet 50/50

I can give you one instance that happened here, a Fire engine on a blue light run overtook an articulated HGV that was stopped unloading in a 30 mph shopping street, a car pulled out of a car park on the opposite carriageway straight into the path of the oncoming fire engine. The result was pretty catastrophic but the driver of the Fire engine was prosecuted for Dangerous Driving, right or wrong, cross that white line and the burden of liability shifts significantly.

The difference being that the Fire Engine drove into the car, rather than the car driving into the OP's lorry.

 

[meeeb]

So if the bus broke down, you were OK to overtake.

If the bus was simply stopped at a bus stop, you should have waited patiently behind it.

And if, as sometimes happens, the bus was ahead of schedule and the driver was passing a couple of minutes to get back on schedule, how would you know and how long would you wait?

This is the Lambo and Mazda driver all over again. Absolute offence to fail to give way at a controlled junction. Of the threadstarter is correct the other driver has checked only to his right before pulling out. It's common. Stand near a junction and watch driver behaviour. If they're turning left chances are they'll only check right before pulling out. If they're turning right they'll look left first, and not to the right as they were taught to do.

 

[Giantvanman]

driving on a normal road ..just delivered a digger to a site... anyway going along this road in manchester fairly wide road ..theres a bus parked at a bus stop ahead.. traffic is going round bus no problem.road ahead is clear for has far has i can see... no problem... i go to make my move ..indicate to move out ready to go passed bus...im now 3/4 passed bus half and half over white line.. theres a junction on my right side road just ahead...a black focus turns left out of side road ...i can see him coming out towards me... im on my horn flashing lights...only doing 18mph....he keeps turning i cant go anywhere,,,BANG..... he hits my 2nd axle on truck bounces off tyre/wheel my offside with his offside headlight area..totals the focus front wing bumper lights bonnet etc etc i lost two pointers off my wheel......he says to me he looked right all clear then turned left..........no police called ..waiting to go thru works insurance..etc etc waiting for whos at fault...,,what do you guys think...

I would say there is a difference between overtaking a moving vehicle and passing a stationery vehicle. The road being clear of oncoming vehicles and no vehicles overtaking you, there is nothing wrong with passing a bus at a stop.

Any vehicle coming from a side road with Give Way markings, should give way. It is not credible for that driver not to have seen you.

The sticky part is the part I have highlighted. It MAY be pointed out that if you had time to see the car, recognise the potential danger and take action, why would your action not be to brake rather than continue and hope your legal 'I am here' warnings (lights and horn) would be enough to avoid a collision?

Over all, I would suggest you have little to worry about; regardless of the fact you are passing a stationary vehicle, you cannot be held accountable for another driver not giving way…………after all, the stationary bus at the presumably fully marked bus stop was visible to him as well and a competent driver should expect that vehicles would want to pass and allow for that before pulling out.

The sticky part I have mentioned may affect percentage blame but I would say road traffic law is firmly on your side…………you were there to be seen, you were travelling at a modest speed, you passed the stationary bus with care, you used the warning devices available to you to warn someone who did not comply with the Highway Code or Road Traffic Law, someone who had responsibility to ensure the highway (ALL of it) was clear before pulling out.

Just my 2p worth.

 

[IanMSpencer]

It's not 50/50. The pass you made was reasonable but you do have to account for the junction and be aware of the difficulties of emerging and consider that regardless of other road users actions had it might not be safe to pass.

Unfortunately, it is all too easy to arrive at a junction, check right and leave the looking ahead till later. Is certainly one of the poor habits I have to work on - I did have an accident 10 years ago where I was pulling out of the works car park intently looking for a gap in heavy traffic, gap floored it, looked left and discovered the stationary queue of traffic...

So I'd put it somewhere around the 20/80.

 

[flango]

The difference being that the Fire Engine drove into the car, rather than the car driving into the OP's lorry.

No the car drove into the fire engine, it pulled out of a side road exactly the same scenario as the OP.

 

[davidjpowell]

a car pulled out of a car park on the opposite carriageway straight into the path of the oncoming fire engine.

No the car drove into the fire engine, it pulled out of a side road exactly the same scenario as the OP.

If a Fire Engine driver really was done for a car driving into the side of a big red fire engine with flashing lights and sirens something's a bit wrong.

 

[flango]

If a Fire Engine driver really was done for a car driving into the side of a big red fire engine with flashing lights and sirens something's a bit wrong.

As I said cross that white line and the liability shifts dramatically, this was a well documented case locally as you can expect but advanced driving instruction is very clear on this topic you only ever cross the white line or go through red lights if it is 100% safe to do so and it does not endanger the public, if an RTA occurs as a result it clearly wasn't safe who ever is at fault. I know lots of traffic officers, fire engine drivers and ambulance drivers who have fell foul of this and been disciplined and sent back for retraining and retesting even with very minor RTA's

 

[SL300-24]

Look at it another way. If you stopped behind the bus the accident would not have happened. You decided to pass the bus, this decision caused, or partly caused the incident by you changing direction. Normally if you overtake a stationary vehicle, you are making the manoeuvre and therefore should give way to oncoming traffic. I think it will pan out that his insurance will not admit liability in this case.

 

[John Jones Jr]

Him. Junction presumably is give way, not drive into oncoming vehicle. This is why taught to look both ways... He did not... He smashed up as a result....

100% agree.

Just to add: Also, it seems more than ever, very common for people to join main roads going left and only look right.

 

[p3tchy]

Not like he can say he didn't see you, he clearly didn't look.

 

[Meldrew2]

50/50 IMHO He clearly never looked left and pulled into your path but was on the correct side of the road. You attempted an overtake on putting you on the wrong side of the road. If the junction was opposite the stopped bus then the overtake could be deemed dangerous or you failed to see the car proceeding up to the said junction, if you couldn't see down the side road to confirm it was clear then the overtake was questionable. The above is what I think the insurance will say but quite clearly the focus driver was a muppet.

IMO the OP was passing a stationary vehicle, not passing a slower moving one. If there is an element of contributory negligence, it could as easily be on the part of the bus driver choosing to stop in an unsafe place, or the road authorities siting a bus stop in an unsafe place. If the OP had been stationary in the same location, the car driver would have sill collided so IMO 100% the fault of car driver

 

[Meldrew2]

If a Fire Engine driver really was done for a car driving into the side of a big red fire engine with flashing lights and sirens something's a bit wrong.

A driver of an emergency vehicle is usually expected to be driving to a far higher level of skill - and would have beem probably travelling far faster than 18mph - so he would have been aware of increased risk to other road users

 

[flango]

If the OP had been stationary in the same location, the car driver would have sill collided so IMO 100% the fault of car driver

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong but why would you be stationary in the middle of a road straddling the white line? Even if he were stationary would the focus driver still have hit him? who knows? maybe the Focus driver saw the bus, didn't expect anyone to overtake and pulled out without properly looking left. I still say if you are on the wrong side of the road and involved in an RTA you have to accept some of the blame, either for poor judgment of the initial situation, failure to anticipate hazards that may develop or not leaving yourself an escape route in case of an unexpected event

 

[Dryce]

Unfortunately, it is all too easy to arrive at a junction, check right and leave the looking ahead till later.

Typically this behaviour makes pedestrians or disabled buggies crossing the road in the vicinity of a junction very vulnerable.

 

[skyline pete]

just to say ..the road junction where the focus pulled out was only a small side road..the bus stop was about 50yds before this junction...the bus driver says he was stopping there for 15min waiting for school kids ???
plus i was 3/4 passed bus ready to pull back in ....

 

[meeeb]

To my mind... overtaking near a junction is not allowed, passing an obstacle in the road is always allowed inc. solid white line (if safe).

So if the bus broke down, you were OK to overtake.

If the bus was simply stopped at a bus stop, you should have waited patiently behind it.

No idea if this will be the insurer's position, just my view.

And if, as sometimes happens, the bus was ahead of schedule and the driver was passing a couple of minutes to get back on schedule, how would you know and how long would you wait?

This is the Lambo and Mazda driver all over again. Absolute offence to fail to give way at a controlled junction. Of the threadstarter is correct the other driver has checked only to his right before pulling out. It's common. Stand near a junction and watch driver behaviour. If they're turning left chances are they'll only check right before pulling out. If they're turning right they'll look left first, and not to the right as they were taught to do.

just to say ..the road junction where the focus pulled out was only a small side road..the bus stop was about 50yds before this junction...the bus driver says he was stopping there for 15min waiting for school kids ???
plus i was 3/4 passed bus ready to pull back in ....

I rest my case.

 

[meeeb]

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong but why would you be stationary in the middle of a road straddling the white line? Even if he were stationary would the focus driver still have hit him? who knows? maybe the Focus driver saw the bus, didn't expect anyone to overtake and pulled out without properly looking left. I still say if you are on the wrong side of the road and involved in an RTA you have to accept some of the blame, either for poor judgment of the initial situation, failure to anticipate hazards that may develop or not leaving yourself an escape route in case of an unexpected event

With respect you cannot 'enforce' all-embracing statements of that nature. Each case has to be judged on its own merits.

A driver cannot be expected to sit behind a stationary bus for 15 minutes as has been inferred in another post, and the mere fact that a vehicle was obliged to move onto the oncoming lane of a road in order to overtake, does not in itself render a blanket liability if an accident ensues.

In this case the picture is not totally clear because there are no photographs or plans which help to clarify the detail of the situation. The threadstarter may have some liability if there was any action he could have taken to avoid a collision, which he failed to do, stopping is the most obvious, if he had a chance to do so, but simply overtaking the stationary bus does not in itself impose liability, unlike failing to give way at a controlled junction, which is an absolute offence.

 

[flango]

With respect you cannot 'enforce' all-embracing statements of that nature. Each case has to be judged on its own merits.

A driver cannot be expected to sit behind a stationary bus for 15 minutes as has been inferred in another post, and the mere fact that a vehicle was obliged to move onto the oncoming lane of a road in order to overtake, does not in itself render a blanket liability if an accident ensues.

In this case the picture is not totally clear because there are no photographs or plans which help to clarify the detail of the situation. The threadstarter may have some liability if there was any action he could have taken to avoid a collision, which he failed to do, stopping is the most obvious, if he had a chance to do so, but simply overtaking the stationary bus does not in itself impose liability, unlike failing to give way at a controlled junction, which is an absolute offence.

I agree with you on the above but any overtake has to be safe if there is any doubt don't do it. I agree the OP in his truck had to pass the bus and could not be expected to wait for 15 minutes. We don't have all the info so it is difficult to make a call but I stand by my statement "cross the white line and be involved in an RTA and you have to share some of the blame"

Be interesting to see the outcome on this

 

[tonyc280]

I'd say 100% the other drivers fault.

 

[Rory]

I still say if you are on the wrong side of the road

Roads are just roads - they don't have a wrong side.