Look no taxes !! Will electric cars really be tax free?

[Tuercas viejas]

In the U.K. fuel at the pump costs about $1.5/litre or $6/US gallon, i.e. triple the cost of fuel in the US. This actually a fair bit cheaper than it was a few years ago when oil was pushing $150/barrel and pump prices here would have been pushing $8/US gallon. About 75% of the pump cost is made up of fuel duty, and value added tax. The U.K. Government also levy tax on every barrel of crude that comes ashore.

So in the US, due to the size of the country, the sensitivity on fuel consumption is I think typically more aligned to range than cost. In the U.K., being a small country, the sensitivity is the other way round.

Margins on fuel are tiny, so in order to make any kind of significant monies from fuel, there must be enough consumer demand to scale up supply. In the US, there was and still is not sufficient demand for ULSD to make it a viable product. Most people have no idea about the scale of the problem. To be viable, a decent sized crude distiller needs to process about 20,000 tonnes of crude per day, something that it does 7-days a week, every week between maintenance shutdowns. This works out to be about 20,000,000 litres of fuel per day, every day. Multiply this up by the number of refineries and the numbers are staggering. There has to be a reliable outlet for this volume of product. I don't know how much of the product stream is gasoline, diesel, aviation fuel and I'm pretty sure it changes to suit demand, refinery configuration and source crude. Even if the ULSD stream was only 20%, that still a lot of fuel that needs to go somewhere.

The cost and energy efficiency of the crude production, transportation, various refinery and distribution processes rely on this scale of operation.

ULSD won't be made available where there aren't enough vehicles that need ULSD. Vehicles that need ULSD will not achieve market penetration where there is poor ULSD supply.

Classic circular problem, that is actually the same for EVs.:
Nobody will provide EV infrastructure where there aren't enough EVs. Nobody will buy an EV when there is insufficient infrastructure.

Oh yes the UK + TAXES!
As Brits we love em--Well Gubbermint does!
We have even gone to war over them!--it really is a scared cow !
As a funny digressing !
You might understand this ?
.
I was en route to northern Idaho and I like to stop for day or two at a hot springs resort in Butte Montana . Nearby is a small town called Philipsburg up in the Pintler range which isn't famous for much except maybe a mad Welshman that took on the fearsome Nez Pierce Indians single handed 150 years ago and survived . These days they roll up the pavement at night and have taken the horses away but the left the hitching posts!
It was a fine 2nd of July lovely day big Montana sky , I was sat on a bench on the sidewalk . Coming down the boardwalk was cowboy dude, white stetson pressed jeans, Tony Llamas , and a holstered Smith and Wesson!
He was walking his elderly mother who as getting short of breath.
Hey pardner can we sit here--Yes take a seat! we exchanged pleasantries

Then
Hey you are not from these parts--Britisher ? Wur dah you come up frum!
Denver yesterday--Denver Coloradah???
He inquired??
Yeh--
You like it there?
Yes pretty nice compared to some places I have lived in!
He pondered then!
Colaradah Goddamn Democrats!!
Taxes and GUN control as he slapped his six gun !
Don't need none of that crapo around here--Come to Montana!
I bid our quasi tour guide/State rep for tourism a fond so long as he continued his stroll down Main st!
For interest Fairmont Hot Springs resort
https://www.fairmontmontana.com/

Philipsburg Montana
Southwest Montana | Broadway Hotel Video and Slideshow

America the beautiful
Dennis
aka Tuercas Viejas

 

[tron]

Resolver translator simple in theory but hard to make, particularlybin volume. My company used to use one in a reversed artificial horizon projector. It wasn' t cheap!

 

[whitenemesis]

Resolver translator simple in theory but hard to make, particularlybin volume. My company used to use one in a reversed artificial horizon projector. It wasn' t cheap!

 

[Stratman]

Nano aluminium offers fuel cells on demand – just add water (New Scientist)

The accidental discovery of a novel aluminium alloy that reacts with water in a highly unusual way may be the first step to reviving the struggling hydrogen economy. It could offer a convenient and portable source of hydrogen for fuel cells and other applications, potentially transforming the energy market and providing an alternative to batteries and liquid fuels.

“The important aspect of the approach is that it lets you make very compact systems,” says Anthony Kucernak, who studies fuel cells at Imperial College London and wasn’t involved with the research. “That would be very useful for systems which need to be very light or operate for long periods on hydrogen, where the use of hydrogen stored in a cylinder is prohibitive.”

more...

Very promising, assuming it scales up.

 

[grober]

In some ways it might have been better to market hybrid drive cars as vehicles with electrically assisted automatic transmissions. The battery essentially supplying energy by "time buffering" In other words the vehicle is still driven by an internal combustion engine but that IC energy is simply "delayed" by the battery till its required. Here's one guys attempt to explain how it works

https://youtu.be/E_xCssR8qQI

[YOUTUBE HD]E_xCssR8qQI[/YOUTUBE HD]

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

'Merica !

In the U.K. fuel at the pump costs about $1.5/litre or $6/US gallon, i.e. triple the cost of fuel in the US. This actually a fair bit cheaper than it was a few years ago when oil was pushing $150/barrel and pump prices here would have been pushing $8/US gallon. About 75% of the pump cost is made up of fuel duty, and value added tax. The U.K. Government also levy tax on every barrel of crude that comes ashore.

So in the US, due to the size of the country, the sensitivity on fuel consumption is I think typically more aligned to range than cost. In the U.K., being a small country, the sensitivity is the other way round.

Margins on fuel are tiny, so in order to make any kind of significant monies from fuel, there must be enough consumer demand to scale up supply. In the US, there was and still is not sufficient demand for ULSD to make it a viable product. Most people have no idea about the scale of the problem. To be viable, a decent sized crude distiller needs to process about 20,000 tonnes of crude per day, something that it does 7-days a week, every week between maintenance shutdowns. This works out to be about 20,000,000 litres of fuel per day, every day. Multiply this up by the number of refineries and the numbers are staggering. There has to be a reliable outlet for this volume of product. I don't know how much of the product stream is gasoline, diesel, aviation fuel and I'm pretty sure it changes to suit demand, refinery configuration and source crude. Even if the ULSD stream was only 20%, that still a lot of fuel that needs to go somewhere.

The cost and energy efficiency of the crude production, transportation, various refinery and distribution processes rely on this scale of operation.

ULSD won't be made available where there aren't enough vehicles that need ULSD. Vehicles that need ULSD will not achieve market penetration where there is poor ULSD supply.

Classic circular problem, that is actually the same for EVs.:
Nobody will provide EV infrastructure where there aren't enough EVs. Nobody will buy an EV when there is insufficient infrastructure.

Same reason that Gas (Petrol) driven cars would never succeed in the States a 100 years ago: "how can you fuel ve-hic-les with a substance which is only sold in drug stores?"

a) Judging from the number of Priuses & Lexi (?) I saw in California last month, Americans are already using hybrid electrics.

b) Tax incentives by "stupid" Government are a major factor. (It was the tax and quota structure that invented the SUV as a workaround to Gas Guzzler regulations) The US Government will intervene in its usual heavy handed way (think Diversity legislation) to force EV's and Hybrids out onto the streets, and to force / incentivise American auto companies to invest in the World's new auto technology, and "try to catch up" with Toyota, Honda VW, BMW etc etc.

c) 'Merica is certainly a big place, and distances can be long. But in a country where there are usually three Autos parked in the Yard, can't there be a place for an Electric, for local and/or city centre work? (Leaving the big engined Pickup and Corvette for weekend use?

 

[GeeJayW]

Oh I think that EV technology will become more pervasive, including in the US.

 

[190]

In some ways it might have been better to market hybrid drive cars as vehicles with electrically assisted automatic transmissions. The battery essentially supplying energy by "time buffering" In other words the vehicle is still driven by an internal combustion engine but that IC energy is simply "delayed" by the battery till its required. Here's one guys attempt to explain how it works

Very interesting explanation. The Prius drive train is so ingenious you have to wonder why it doesn't produce massively better real world fuel consumption than a convention IC engined car. Perhaps the fact that it doesn't says as much about the state of development of conventional cars as it does about the hybrid concept.

 

[Stratman]

Is it possible that hybrid cars need to be driven in a manner which gets more out of their powertrain? Looking at some EV forums, they seem to advocate a style which wouldn't win an economy contest with just a petrol engine but maximises battery usage and improves economy with their hybrids, or so they say.

By driving a Prius like an ICE only car, are people getting the best out of them? Do we need educating on how to drive the new breeds?

 

[GeeJayW]

Very interesting explanation. The Prius drive train is so ingenious you have to wonder why it doesn't produce massively better real world fuel consumption than a convention IC engined car. Perhaps the fact that it doesn't says as much about the state of development of conventional cars as it does about the hybrid concept.

Driving from A to B requires a certain amount of energy. In an HEV, the energy comes from the ICe. It's where the emissions are made/not made that's of interest. There may be small gains from regenerative braking, but these are minor compared to the overall energy used, especially for motorway style operation.

For PHEVs, some of the energy comes from mains electricity, so fuel used on said journey will be less than the equivalent HEV.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Very interesting explanation. The Prius drive train is so ingenious you have to wonder why it doesn't produce massively better real world fuel consumption than a convention IC engined car. Perhaps the fact that it doesn't says as much about the state of development of conventional cars as it does about the hybrid concept.

Well they actually do produce significantly better mpg than pure petrol ICE's
I have 4 Prius' in my business fleet plus a Lexus es300H (hybrid)
The Prius are split into 50/50 Gen 1's and 2's.
Both Gen2's return 45 mpg (US /gallon) and the Gen1's return around 38 mpg (US gallon)
The actual savings are in maintenance and down time with hardly ever needing to replace foundation brakes! I see these brake sets going well past 100,000 miles . The Gen1's have over 250,000 miles on them and still going! (AND yes in original traction batteries!)

The Lexus returns a consistent 42 mpg (US) doing mixed urban usage .
With 50,000 mils on the Lexus apart from regular servicing nothing has been done other than these PM's.
Many of you might think that all this goes on in "Californication land " but in fact in Denver just about one in every 100 cars on the road is a hybrid.

Now some trade off's .
On long runs of say 1000 miles or more over motorway conditions I have stacked up a diesel VW Jetta (1,9 ALH powered car) against a Gen1 Prius. In city driving both cars deliver about the same mpg but at a constant 80mph cruise the Prius loses about 10 mpg whereas the Jetta was always the same irrespective of city or highway high speed cruising.
So not all roses .
T/V

 

[grober]

Thats said we are in danger of ignoring the 2 elephants in the room here. NOx and particulates. I imagine that for urban driving MPG and CO2 might indeed be almost be comparable ---with a modern diesel edging it by a considerable margin on long highway driving. For city driving however I would offer modern diesels still can't compete with modern hybrids on the NOx/ particulate front when subjected to the latest real world driving tests.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...car-models-remain-highly-polluting-tests-show
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/19/mercedes-recalls-3m-diesel-cars-emissions-concerns

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Government interference

It was Gordon Brown's 1999 tax changes that created the diesel boom across the UK.

It's Government behaviour that creates the congestion and exhaust pollution problem in crowded areas: through taxation, road design, and deliberate centralisation of activity in key cities.

Tax changed behaviours, and tax could change them back again.

Want to reduce pollution on the Edgware Road: make it part of the Congestion Zone.
Want to reduce pollution on Putney High Street - route traffic away from this geographically difficult, wind-free enclave - or at least set the lights so the road runs more freely.
Want to reduce pollution in central London? Give tax incentives to run businesses outside of London and the South East.

The problem with Government meddling is that there are always consequences that weren't thought through.

 

[GeeJayW]

I agree.

To me the main problem with government meddling is that they only seem to be able to see as far as the next election.

Issues like health, defence, education, transport and now Brexit, should transcend party politics. That said, due to the complexity of the issues, the consultancy/thinking through process can just go round and round. This lack of direction would probably be made worse by cross party discussion by what would be regarded as a quango. Meanwhile, various needs go unaddressed or poorly served.

 

[Dryce]

It's Government behaviour that creates the congestion and exhaust pollution problem in crowded areas: through taxation, road design, and deliberate centralisation of activity in key cities.

It's not just 'the government'.

While they nudged the car market towards diesel it was the public that mis-perceived the taxation benefits and stampeded - which was what really distorted the market.

We don't have to drive large heavy vehicles - and not every journey we make is necessary (or at least not well judged use of the vehicle).

So Mr Brown is responsible a bit of it but not all.

Where HMG perhaps has a bit of responsibility is that it was obvious that the market was distorting in the mid 2000's. That should have caused them to take a step back and worry about policy.

I've said before - set VED and BIK by weight - not CO2 or price. Then let the manufacturers and market figure how to deal with those parameters.

 

[grober]

Governments eh what are they like? Who elected these bozos anyway? OH! that would be us.

On the specific point in question might I suggest that part of the problem stems from the fact that the vast majority of members of the House of Commons and the senior echelons of government are scientifically or technically illiterate. This makes them vulnerable to the phenomenon whereby the cynical quest for policy-based evidence has trumped the desperate need for evidence-based policy.

 

[SW18]

I've said before - set VED and BIK by weight - not CO2 or price. Then let the manufacturers and market figure how to deal with those parameters.

The Dutch set VED by weight, and the rates get pretty steep too: over €1000 for large diesel cars.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Governments eh what are they like? Who elected these bozos anyway? OH! that would be us.

On the specific point in question might I suggest that part of the problem stems from the fact that the vast majority of members of the House of Commons and the senior echelons of government are scientifically or technically illiterate. This makes them vulnerable to the phenomenon whereby the cynical quest for policy-based evidence has trumped the desperate need for evidence-based policy.

I absolutely agree well stated!
Remember the majority these folk all come from an Academic background , the Arts , not scientific or heaven forbid a PERCEIVED grubby hands engineering background.

When I worked with B/L internationally and liaised with some MPs, Ambassadors, Mil Attaches and those that inhabited the hallowed walls of the Foreign Office one thing I concluded. They simply haven't got a bloody clue!
It's not that they are not intelligent on the contrary, some real bright sparks politically, but they have difficulty in perceiving end results , its all short term stuff!

Talking tech of course is over their heads, they will pay lip service to it but I might as well have been talking swahili!
I would often come out of a meeting relating to something totally botched they had had their hands into. Like the supply fiasco of expensive generators for the Sudan, & then truck support for famine relief! I would often be thinking over tea, bickies & niceties what am I doing here? What bloody waste of time and taxpayers money was that balls up!!
Resulting of course in my private thoughts on the train back to Preston in Industrial Lancashire that can only be summed up with blind resolution and a popular catlick Irish blessing:-
Spectacles Testicles Wallet and Watch!

I suppose I am compelled to relate a few statements I got from a long term friend of mine called Geoff, a black country auto unit repair specialist who had significant contracts with the Min Def.
Meeting the Minister and his retinue for drinks at a surrey pub at 6,00 pm I got a surreptitious nudge and a whisper in my ear !
Look they are not real men down here in Lundun, they all drink halves of bitter or pink gins--Real men like uz drink pints
Tuercas viejas
.

 

[st13phil]

The Dutch set VED by weight, and the rates get pretty steep too: over €1000 for large diesel cars.

They also have some pretty attractive discounts for electric & hybrid cars though - which tend to be rather on the heavy side - which is why so many company car parks are full of plug-in hybrids taking advantage of their employers electricity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Doodle]

Well they actually do produce significantly better mpg than pure petrol ICE's...the Gen1's return around 38 mpg (US gallon)

Which equates to about 45mpg in imperial-speak, or exactly what the fiancee's 9yo Fiesta gets. As did the one she had before that.

I'm sure by American standards that's a revelation, but in Europe that's underwhelmingly average.