Mercedes W114 250 Coupe - help!

[Charles Morgan]

So the curse of terminological inexactitudes strikes again!

Here's the carburettor inlet manifold for the 250C Graeme - a very easy place to start from in fitting twin Webers.

INTAKE MANIFOLD - 230.6, 250S, 280S, W108, W109, W110, W111, W114 MERCEDES-BENZ A1141402301 , A1081401101 1081401101 1141402301 A1081401101 A1141402301

 

[Charles Morgan]

The later W124s had ASD as an option and also the five speed auto with 5th operated electronically. IIRC correctly these operated with input from the ABS sensors - unless I'm mistaken the earlier W126s with the four speeds had none of these extras. I have asked a chap who does know about the 104s and the ECUs to get a final answer to your question.

The guru has spoken. As long as the ECU, loom, throttle body of the 104 is transplanted whole it should be capable of working with no problems with a 4 speed. The early 4 speed auto is hydraulically operated and quite simple.

Whether that applies to a 1990 one, who knows?

 

[grober]

You definitely want to stick with the 4 speed box which is essentially self contained hydraulic only. The early 5 speed box has that electrically operated 5th gear which if I recall is associated with that now rare [=expensive] large and multifunction Fuel pump relay and different wiring loom from the 4speed cars.
Bear in mind also with the later M104 cars you are into the era of the dodgy insulation wiring looms so horsing about with an ageing loom may just cause its demise if it hasn't been renewed?

 

[Charles Morgan]

I'm not putting an M104 in, just answering Bellow's question from earlier about using the engine and box on a standalone basis.

Apart from having already owned two W124s with the engine in, it brings Cylinder Head gasket issues too.

 

[grober]

Returning to the carburettor path a quick sum might be

2 x 32/36 DGAS kit [ from the states] £514
1x MANIFOLD [ Germany] £260
1X MECHANICAL FUEL PUMP [GERMANY] £70
FUEL PUMP - MECHANICAL MERCEDES-BENZ / PIERBURG A1150900150 1150900150 A1150900150

MISCELLANEOUS FUEL LINES/CLIPS /GASKETS/INLINE FILTERS --???

plus carriage/insurance------approx £900--> £1K TO " CARBURETTOR" your car.


Add the cost of an ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTOR AT £355 and you are sorted
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That's if you were to chose to stay with the original engine which I have to confess to having ignored the "elephant in the room" bit ---- what is the state of the existing engine -- is it a runner? - is it in bits? If there's a big question mark against it then any approach involving the transplant of a "known runner" engine becomes much more attractive?

 

[Charles Morgan]

In a nutshell Graeme you have summarised my dilemma. Spending money to get the existing thing running (your costings are pretty close to mine) and finding issues that then need sorting, that is not a happy place to be. Even worse is getting it all sorted and finding out you really could do with another 30 horses (which is my belief) and then starting to mod. Bellow's idea of keeping the old engine is a good one - so if sold it can be sold as reversible back to original.

Just got back from Tony. He said the valves etc are pristine but the engine hasn't been run. It is in one piece in the car with no obvious things missing but needs the timing chain and rocker cover back on. My theory with a lot of cars that get semi abandoned is that some issue has stopped them running and the owner has no money to sort it. This was the state Tony found it in and he has sorted out the bodywork.

Tony thought the idea of putting in a V8 was great! (his daughter races TVRs). At least with that option the auto and engine would suit the nature of the car.

 

[Bellow]

Reviving a thought I had earlier re retaining the original engine and dealing with its troublesome Bosch D system. Convert to LPG and rely on the Bosch D for cold start up only. There are reasons enough to reject LPG but if retaining the original motor and considering carbs, LPG has advantages in my opinion.
Yes, the original motor is still an unknown quantity. A piston seized in a bore complicates matters no end. Any idea why the timing chain was removed? At least some indication of its health can be ascertained by turning it over by hand.
I had wondered what Tony would think of a transplant. Fully approving - result!

PS.
Thanks for the info re M104 and auto boxes. Much appreciated.

 

[219]

Further research indicates it might be more difficult.

On the other hand, sounds like a small block Chevy would have no problem (internal camshafts).

Now all I need to do is to find the right shade of pink paint for Derek...

Charles ,

Have you considered taking a leaf out of Mr Rhind's book and fitting the same modern Diesel engine he put into his R107 ?

At least all the problems have been ironed out , we know a man who knows all the answers , and you would end up with a very practical and nice car for wine tasting trips across the continent !

 

[Charles Morgan]

Derek

Its imitation would be the most sincere form of flattery on my part, having seen the work done it is an extraordinary achievement which certainly wowed me and my friend Simeon, on whose ramp the car was hoisted.

However, Derek did make the point then and subsequently that it is a huge amount of work which would require the services of a sympathetic engineer, and to summarise his PM to me when I mentioned fitting another engine it was stick with what you've got, the work is immense.

I honestly wouldn't want to burden Derek anyway. It's one thing to add sage advice on a thread, another to be essential to the output.

If he could get it to work with a good auto rather than that horrible dogleg though...

 

[John Jones Jr]

Spending money to get the existing thing running and finding issues that then need sorting, that is not a happy place to be. Even worse is getting it all sorted and finding out you really could do with another 30 horses (which is my belief) and then starting to mod. Bellow's idea of keeping the old engine is a good one - so if sold it can be sold as reversible back to original.

As this car will not decrease in value, in reality all it will do is rise, I'd first make an earnest attempt at getting the original engine running, regardless if a transplant is definitely on the agenda.

It would be nice & wise to have an original know condition engine (hopefully good) if the time came to sell whether fitted to the car or not. Also, it would be advantageous to have the car running in a standard state first, thus giving flexibility on when to do a transplant. Nothing worse than having a car
immobile due to ongoing major modifications while still collecting parts &
information etc, been there done that!

Of course the alternative is pull the engine now, thus saving on any expenditure involved it getting it running, personally I happily take risk of spending what might only be a few bob in the grand scheme of things to know the state of the current engine and with a bit of luck you'll initially have a useable car. Good luck & watching with interest.


P.s. As for fitting carb/s, imo you are taking two steps backwards to go one forward.

 

[swampmonkey]

If I bought a V8 with transmission from a later W126, would the flange from that car work with the W116 diff?

I'd love to find a W116 6.9 diff with LSD! I suspect they are quite rare though!

the 6.9 is super-rare. and a LSD kind of unneccesary for you type of power

if you get the engine, and the gearbox and put that in your w114?
in that case it would work to... but do you want a v8?

---------------------------------------------
its a bit of a tricky decision....
1. change flange of differential
2. when welding the cardanshaft, get a v8 shaft..

if you redo the cardanshaft (the shaft between gearbox and differential)
instead of shortening/making longer, welding and keeping the smal flexdisc in the back, you get a largerflange cardanshaft and dont have to redo the differential, (you still have to change length etc of the shaft)

(and balanced, witch makes finding a enginecombo witch doesnt require redoing the cardanshaft much more desirable)
if you get like a om601 or 602 and dont have to redo the cardanshaft, it might be a better option to just change the flange at the differential. (needs to be torque-tightened correctly, and dissembled..)

Overhauling a differential | Mercedes-Benz turbo
i changed the "spacer" washers while i had mine apart.

the easiest sollution would be to get a differential from a 300tdt or 300sd w116/w126, those has 3.07, and 1985 2.88 in ratio. and has the correct flange straight away. and thus, one thing less to worry about.
i have a friend in California that has gotten me my 2.88s (three) and al was in mint condition, a guy named Garret. i could check if that would be possible/interessting, id paid around 380£ or something for a low-mileage 2.88 or 3.07 but can see what i can do. (including shipping)

(i havent paid tax a single time he sent to me btw :bannana

....
none of my w115/w114/w123 or w116 has different differentials/parts in the back, al a differential in the middle, two driveshafts in the free exactly as the picture Grober posted. althou the older w114/w115 has larger bolts that holds the driveshafts in place, 19mm head instead of 13mm.. (m8 vs m10?) but totaly interchangeable.

even the w126 and r107 has the same differential untill 1986.. (1985 will fit, 1986 wont fit a /8)




---
on another note, i kind of agree with John Jones Jr, get the car driveable, if just barely, to feel how it behaves at speed, brakes, balance in driveline, bearings and bushings, and play in stearing. get a feel of the car.

that way you can overhaul the powerstearing, change al bushings and fix al important stuff while the engine is out, instead of fighting around it later on.

after that, i would find a good condition fivecylinder dieselturbo, a fivespeed, a 3.07 and have a exceptional long trip car, with reliability, low fuelconsumption etc etc.

sorry for the wall of text...

 

[swampmonkey]

The guru has spoken. As long as the ECU, loom, throttle body of the 104 is transplanted whole it should be capable of working with no problems with a 4 speed. The early 4 speed auto is hydraulically operated and quite simple.

Whether that applies to a 1990 one, who knows?

another option if you want a fivespeed auto, and has some cash in the mattress would be to contact the guy in Denmark who makes custom controller for the 722.6xx gearbox (found in w210 and newer vehicles)
the choice of many tuners..

that way you get a fifth gear with overdrive, and overlock.
you have normal auto-shifting, can fit pedals behind the stearingwheel, (or small buttons on the backside) when you want to drive sporty, and shifting points etc of your own choice.

---
the diesel w124 with om603 got the simple fourspeed, might be an option, or perhaps the auto from a w126 300SE (the earlier, the simpler, right?)

Wings [Danish Manufacture? replacement] listed under repair panels prices seem reasonable? quality unknown ??https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ich8basis.de/products-page/8-basis&edit-text=

Klokkerholm is somewhat decent, not perfect, but better than any others ive stumbled upon, quite big over here in scandinavia, used their parts to reweld wheelarches in the back of w115 and w123s, and they work with minor modifications.

 

[grober]

Nice post on jetting Weber progressive chokes on the 250 engine. Not without problems evidently using the standard manifold.
Weber Conversion Jetting - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

 

[Charles Morgan]

As this car will not decrease in value, in reality all it will do is rise, I'd first make an earnest attempt at getting the original engine running, regardless if a transplant is definitely on the agenda.

It would be nice & wise to have an original know condition engine (hopefully good) if the time came to sell whether fitted to the car or not. Also, it would be advantageous to have the car running in a standard state first, thus giving flexibility on when to do a transplant. Nothing worse than having a car
immobile due to ongoing major modifications while still collecting parts &
information etc, been there done that!

Of course the alternative is pull the engine now, thus saving on any expenditure involved it getting it running, personally I happily take risk of spending what might only be a few bob in the grand scheme of things to know the state of the current engine and with a bit of luck you'll initially have a useable car. Good luck & watching with interest.


P.s. As for fitting carb/s, imo you are taking two steps backwards to go one forward.

All very good points, duly noted. I have been burned badly in the past with the DJet on my Citroen SM so I just have caution in going too far down the line in trying to sort it, but if I can get it running I shall.

I also agree on carbs (sorry Graeme) but Nick Froome is always worth listening to, but having heard me suggest the V8 conversion he thinks a bigger engine conversion is a much better idea.

Thanks for pitching in, I am enjoying this a lot!

 

[Charles Morgan]

Swampmonkey - thank you very much!

If you can find a 300tdt or 300sd w116/w126 differential that would be perfect - I think that is by far the best way to go.

I shall try and get the car drivable.

I think I am still keen to do a V8, but having seen Druk's 300 OM606 turbo-ed conversion I am intrigued by that too - you are keen on the 5 cylinders - is that your preference or is it easier to do?

A lot of W202 turbocharged Om605s are around - are they suitable?

 

[Bellow]

Microsquirt would be easier than jetting DGAVs (which most people bin and replace with a DGAS(s) - easier to jet, and drive better).
Hanging a 4-sp auto box on the back of the six would be pretty straightforward though. Given the need to convert to unleaded spec transplant re-emerges as viable. As ever hooking it all up downstream from the gearbox is the issue once it's established there's space for everything.
Reasonable summary of the current state of play?

 

[Charles Morgan]

Tomorrow I am going to visit a chap who has restored a W114 coupe to stock and has a whole load of bits I need. Needless to say if I can have a ride I'll try my hardest but will certainly pump him for info.

Another issue with getting it going sensibly in stock form is the clutch will need replacing too.

Today I am going to be thinking about brakes. The existing callipers will all need restoring and I suspect the discs and pads will all need doing too. As the W114 has single callipers and the rear brakes don't have anti-dive I think some research into sensible replacements, especially with a more potent engine, is wise.

 

[Bellow]

Looks kind of comfortable in there. Scrubs up good too.

I still think there's a case to be made for retaining the M114. OK, to be rid of the Bosch D it requires alternative fuelling kit but MS only requires programming (self programming to some degree?) as much of the hardware can be carried over. Better ignition comes with MS so some efficiency gain straight away. A custom made stainless exhaust can let it all be heard at the appropriate volume.
No need to remove any heavy componentry (unless opting for an auto box (I would) or to free the clutch - there is another method). Block, diff, propshaft, driveshafts, all usable as they are, where they are. Its own brakes cleaned up may suffice.
The conversion for unleaded need not be performed immediately. The seats will recede but adjustment of the valve clearances will alleviate that for some time. When they are spent - they get machined out anyway. (Valves may or may not survive, may or may not require replacing as part of the conversion anyway).
Aesthetics. The exterior, the interior both have their own period charm. So does that six in that engine bay. Polished alloy cam box and those oh so visible inlet runners are part of the overall aesthetic. (To my mind a V8 is just a mess of rubber pipes to look at).

I could go on to make the case for the V8 (which in reality is only some more power and a different sound) but the work involved to make it happen makes it harder to recommend when much of the appeal of retaining the M114 lies in its ‘already thereness’. I may be being overly conservative here, but preserving the mechanical originality has some appeal.
Only my opinion (I stress) and not my car, but the project is at a stage where drilling down on exactly what is needed for any drivetrain is approaching and if the M114 turns over by hand and responds to being turned on the starter with decent compression all cylinders – personally I’d give it a chance. And for its intended use – is the M114 not entirely adequate – given the alternatives already available in the Morgan stable?

 

[Charles Morgan]

It does look rather nice doesn't it.

I have a friend who is itching to get his compressor powered polisher out and on to some alloy too.

 

[Bellow]

It does look rather nice doesn't it.

I think so. Worth treating with an auto box?

I have a friend who is itching to get his compressor powered polisher out and on to some alloy too.

I think you should let him....