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Mercedes W114 250 Coupe - help!

An auto is an interesting idea. Normally if the engine is just at the edge of acceptable an auto will push it over into sluggish, but as the MB boxes of the era are fluid coupling rather than torque converter, reports are it makes next to no difference.

I believe that the propshaft length is shorter on the manual though, so that would be a mild negative.
 
the later auto atleast was longer than the manual gearbox.
had 220d auto and planed on using the propshaft on a 240d manual, the first shaft (of three) was about half the lenght of one from a manual.... having a hard time imagining the earlier autos being shorter than a 4speed manual...


"new" member, without many posts, so cant send you a pm unfortunately.
but a direct fit 3.07 is doable, i happen to know that he to is after the om605 turbo engine. if they are cheap and dime a dozen over at your place, a swap + cash for you doesnt seem like a impossibility...

the reason i prefere the fivecylinder is first and foremost, lenght of engine/size in enginebay.
Enginebay | Mercedes-Benz turbo

MG_7481.jpg


this is in a w123, i know, but if you look at the first image there, you see the water outlet from the coupe is so close to the engine i had to swap the hose for something more flexible (and i got one with a 100degree bend something "built in" if not, it went against the back of the engine. and if you look at the front, below the hose to the radiator, you see that the belt is a couple of centimeter from the radiator...

the mechanical fan is removed, no place for it in there (electric instead) and to swap the gearbox (ive mad that change) is a HUGE pain in the ass, specialtools and realy wierd angles.

a w114/w115 isnt exactly much roomier than the w123, and 150hp that the om605 turbo produces stock is quite a lot for a normal w114, and with just a new pump and a larger turbo, you will be going throu tires at the same speed you fill up the tank
 
Strikes me that an incremental approach is possibly best with modifications and additions "as and when". First priority to get the existing engine running--- possibly badly :eek: with the existing technology-- but running. :thumb: Having done a rough costing on the carburettor option+ electronic distributer at around £1300 [ despite its simplicity appeal ] Mega squirt begins to look a very attractive [and possibly cheaper?] alternative. It's only then I would turn to autoboxes, differentials and V8 conversions.
All this "mechanical stuff " to be run in parallel with all the bodywork and interior trim that must also necessarily take place and have a call on funding.
End result hopefully a soundly restored 80% original W114 Coupe with reasonably reliable and up to date running gear. :dk:
 
Swampmonkey - many thanks. I am going to decide very soon on what I do, when I've had a chance to chat with an existing owner, my friend whose classic car shop will do the work and another friend who can offer an opinion on what the market thinks about modded car values.

I think this thread has been tremendously valuable in helping frame my thought processes with some very hard information gleaned from lots of work. Thank you all.
 
An auto is an interesting idea. Normally if the engine is just at the edge of acceptable an auto will push it over into sluggish, but as the MB boxes of the era are fluid coupling rather than torque converter, reports are it makes next to no difference.

That was something I learned along the way - that MB continued with fluid couplings rather than TCs - hence an extra ratio in the box over rival's efforts.
My W123 had a 4sp auto but I don't know if it was FC or TC. Does anyone know the transition date?

Auto could suit the car. Especially if the gearchange is as recalcitrant as I imagine it to be.
 
Sadly no from me about transition date - 1981 for the 722.3 4Gtronic, but the 722.1 was used up to 1982.

All that from Wikipedia so all might be wrong.
 
That was something I learned along the way - that MB continued with fluid couplings rather than TCs - hence an extra ratio in the box over rival's efforts.
My W123 had a 4sp auto but I don't know if it was FC or TC. Does anyone know the transition date?

Auto could suit the car. Especially if the gearchange is as recalcitrant as I imagine it to be.

Many of the older M-B manual boxes were actually quite nice , certainly back in the Ponton and Fintail era , although most were column change , the gearboxes were lovely in terms of the gear change , tactile and easy to use ; my W115 220/8 was also column change and I loved driving that . I also used to get shots of a friend's 230SL Pagoda and the floor change 4 speed manual in that car was pleasant to use too . One very common thing with all the old M-B manuals , though , was the choice of ratios with an incredibly low first which ran out barely after you got moving , and widely spaced ratios up to a very tall top .

My W114 280E was the very rare 5 speed manual with the Getrag box ; by this time ( 1975 car ) the gear change had a rubbery feel as opposed to the feeling of something well oiled and superbly engineered as the earlier ones . That 5 speed box was supposedly a close ratio one , but it felt more like a 4 speed plus overdrive top to me - it was , in its day , a very fast car and , being in my early 20's when I had it , I drove it like a hooligan much of the time : these still being my formative years behind the wheel :)

That brings me onto another subject . As I have mentioned before , I learned to drive and passed my test in my dad's 220/8 , then was given the car when he replaced it with a new W123 250 . Having driven all of these extensively , and spent my early years 'hooning around' in these cars , I can tell you that the W115 with the four cylinder engine was a much better balanced and better handling car ! Even on ( IIRC 165 or 175 SR14's ) it was eminently 'chuckable' , could easily be put into four wheel drifts and recovered , had , for the time , amazing levels of road holding ( a friend at the time with an Alfasud could not believe how I could throw it round corners without losing grip or complaint from the tyres ) ; that W115 had taut , firm suspension , while still comfortable which made it one of the best cars I ever had the pleasure of owning . By contrast the W114 280E , with the big , heavy lump in the front was something of a barge in comparison , never so eager to change direction quickly and only by virtue of having the manual box and substantially more power , with which you could either power it through corners , or kick the back end out at will , could it be hustled quickly along roads ( what with my driving style back then I went through countless tyres , remember burning through a set of Pirelli 185/70x14 CN36's in only five thousand or so miles ! , countless sets of brake pads although , oddly , don't remember changing discs often , and three clutches durning my tenure from 48,000 miles to 272,000 miles in that car , by which time it still went like a rocket but the body was rusting away underneath me and I sold it for spares to go over to the Ponton as my daily driver ; my dad had passed away by this time and the W123 had been sold ) . Incidentally , the 6 cyl Ponton could be made to pick up its skirts and be hustled along , but it did teach me to learn and respect swing axles :) That W123 , by comparison with either of the earlier cars , was even more of a barge , with wallowy soft suspension , the six cylinder 250 having the weight and thirst penalties of the 280E but without any of the go . I did eventually have all three variants of 280 in the W123 chassis E/CE/TE , all autos and all barge like again ; the autos never felt anywhere close to as fast as that manual W114 280E I had , but memory over a few years can play tricks .

Anyway , the point of all this rambling is that I'm wondering if another vuable option might be to look for a W124 230E/CE/TE donor car and transplant the 4 cyl engine and gearbox from that - it would probably go about as well as the older 250 , be better on fuel , should be easy to drop in and would lighten the front end to give noticeably better handling . While there are , of course , newer and more powerful 4 cyl engines , the associated electronics would be a PITA to transplant , but the M102 shouldn't be too bad - it just wouldn't look 'period' in there . As previously mentioned , you could keep the original engine so that a future owner coukd go back if desired .
 
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Yes , I drove a Hydrak equipped W180 220S once : it was a strange experience with the manual gear change , no clutch pedal to press and this loud 'clunk' every time you touched the gear lever , then when you released it .

I know the 'clutch less manual ' concept came back in the A Class , but I've never driven one .
 
Thanks Derek! I might therefore have something fun to drive, although the 250CE has a similar weight to the 280 but less power...

What happened with Mercedes and manuals is quite beyond me - the Getrag box in the 2.5 16 is clunky and hard to use fluidly (that silly gear knob doesn't help - the coupe has the same one) whereas the same generation of boxes in the BMWs I have driven are fluid and lovely (not as sharp as a Honda box but leagues better than the MB one). I am told that re-bushing the linkages with brass washers changes the character completely, so that is going to be done.

Nothing beats hand on experience, thanks again!
 
the choice of ratios with an incredibly low first which ran out barely after you got moving , and widely spaced ratios up to a very tall top .

My W114 280E was the very rare 5 speed manual with the Getrag box ; by this time ( 1975 car ) the gear change had a rubbery feel as opposed to the feeling of something well oiled and superbly engineered as the earlier ones . That 5 speed box was supposedly a close ratio one , but it felt more like a 4 speed plus overdrive top to me - it was , in its day , a very fast car and , being in my early 20's when I had it , I drove it like a hooligan much of the time : these still being my formative years behind the wheel :)

the fivespeed you had in the 280E was probably a fivespeed with an overdrive, fourth 1.1 and the fifth 0.8, it shouldnt have had that spongy feel thou, unless it was fitted later on.

afaik the fivespeed in the w115/w114 and early w123 had a iron house, and a aluminum bell housing, and

unless the first gear was downwards, and second up
it should be an overdrive, the 1:1 fith could be found in vans/trucks and was a close ratio box (or more like a superlow first)

711.113 is 1:1 in 4 and 0.8 in 5th
711.110 is 1:1 in 5th

later on in the w123 the aluminium 717.400 came fitted to the om617 and 280E engines, those had more of a spongy feel, and a underdimensioned bearing at the front, and thus not as great longevity as the earlier 711.113

and then there is the third fivespeed 117.261, wich also should be overdrive fifth as far as i know.

searching and paying for a fivespeed thats a straight fit is utterly expensive, you are better of welding another bellhouse to a w124 fivespeed, if you stumble upon a car, and the seller doesnt know what he has, it might be a good idea to take it :)
 
unless the first gear was downwards, and second up
it should be an overdrive, the 1:1 fith could be found in vans/trucks and was a close ratio box (or more like a superlow first)

They are the gearboxes I am (possibly unfairly) judging MB shift quality on. The 5sp with crawler first gear and the 4sp without - as fitted to the 3.5tonne pick-up (208?). Horrible, horrible, horrible though the crawler had its uses, and wholly worse - to the point of nearly being unable to change gear - during a long winter run to Gt Yarmouth when presumably the slush washed the last remnants of lubricant from the linkage, or just jammed it up.
So yes, the linkage plays a large part in determining shift quality. Getrags I've driven (early BMW 3-Series) from memory were slick but slightly notchy - as was the one from an Opel Manta (1.8LET engine) (more crisp than slick though) but as it replaced a small Ford 4-sp, it was never going to match the shifting of that gem.

That W123 , by comparison with either of the earlier cars , was even more of a barge , with wallowy soft suspension ,

Mine, with nothing more than the carbed four, still saw off a Mk2 Golf GTi though!
Understeery, it only once felt 'balanced'. But carrying that amount of weight in the boot everyday wasn't really on. Whether the additional mass or the geometry change was the cause I don't know, but change there was. Next on the list therefore was a stiffer rear anti-roll bar but the engine went sick before I had the chance to fit it and plans changed and off went the W123. I still miss that car.
 
Just back from a pretty turgid run up and back to the top of Norfolk. The Fens are all very well with their jet black soil and eternal skies, but with a mobile road block of lorries, camper vans, buses and loons of indeterminate sex, a 130 mile journey took 3 hours there and 3 hours back, and I wasn't hanging around on the proper roads.

I have made my decision about the way ahead, a long journey is always helpful for a mental de-clutter, and guess what I got from the chap who was selling a whole load of lovely parts?

A notional cup of tea and a biscuit redeemable in person (this exercise is getting expensive) to the first person who guesses the outcome and the thing I bought.
 
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Nope.
 
An auto box, though I suspect the tea and biscuit has Druk's name on it.
 
Got it in one Bellow. Off a car with 58000 on the clock.

w114auto_zpsc3831c8f.jpg
 
That to my mind, will be the making of that car. (Feet are in pairs - pedals should be too.)
Rear seats also? Anything else?
 
Also a rear seat for re-covering/spraying, chrome sill trims, 250CE and Automatic badges, side mirrors (L&R), window winder trims, side quarter-light, front bumper rubber, washer bottle, cuddly toy and teas made.

Very nice chap, he bought a scrap car with rust, has broken it and taken various things for his, but tons of stuff left over. He's run Pagodas with the 250 as well as his coupe and said in good running order they are very nice but really recommended the auto as just suiting the car perfectly.

Until I get the car over for a fuller inspection I think I have everything trim apart from good bumpers (sorted if transport from NI achievable) and carpet set - that can be bought off the shelf.
 
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