OP
OP
Dieter
Active Member
Hi,
It seems to go from bad to worse
.
"London, 29 May 2005.
Proposals For £900 Car Tax Slammed As "Unnecessary, Unfair And Discriminatory"
The ABD today slammed proposals from the Energy Saving Trust to increase Road Tax (VED) from £165 to £900 PER YEAR on any car that does less than 35mpg.
The Trust is concerned that, following US trends, customers are choosing less fuel efficient vehicles, and so increasing emissions of carbon dioxide, the raw material for all green plants that is controversially accused of being a factor in climate change.
"But this isn't true," said the ABD's Nigel Humphries. "Far from getting worse, the fuel economy of the average new car is improving all the time as new technology improves efficiency. A typical Ford Mondeo now does 45-50mpg instead of the 30-35mpg of ten years ago."
Using Car Tax as a stick to punish those who need a large car because they have a large family, or because they need to tow heavy trailers, is totally unjust. The proposal is doubly unfair as, unlike fuel tax, it takes no account of actual mileage travelled by a vehicle nor the actual fuel consumed. "Fears of an American style gas guzzling truck boom are unfounded," continued Humphries. "Unlike the US, nearly 80% of the cost of fuel in this country is tax. This has severely restricted sales of larger engined cars."
This suggestion by the EST is an assault on cars that farmers actually need will be deeply unpopular in the countryside, representing as it does the latest element in the activists' class war and the moves to redistribute wealth.
There is also a strong safety concern with this proposal. People will be encouraged to use small cars for purposes for which they are not fit — towing large trailers and carrying many passengers.
The Government should know better than to follow this foolish advice and scapegoat a minority of the population through extortionate taxation. It would be more useful for the EST and the DfT to pursue the role of nearly-empty buses that belch carcinogens through the country's streets while achieving atrocious fuel economy in single figure miles per gallon.
Meanwhile, the EST should be lobbying for ways to help our motor industry develop and introduce new hybrid technology to improve fuel efficiency and to use alternative fuels, like biodiesel, bioethanol and, eventually, hydrogen.
"Trouble is, waving a stick and scapegoating a minority of the population is always easier than doing something positive and strategic," concluded Humphries."
This must be a joke, musn't it?
Cheers
It seems to go from bad to worse
."London, 29 May 2005.
Proposals For £900 Car Tax Slammed As "Unnecessary, Unfair And Discriminatory"
The ABD today slammed proposals from the Energy Saving Trust to increase Road Tax (VED) from £165 to £900 PER YEAR on any car that does less than 35mpg.
The Trust is concerned that, following US trends, customers are choosing less fuel efficient vehicles, and so increasing emissions of carbon dioxide, the raw material for all green plants that is controversially accused of being a factor in climate change.
"But this isn't true," said the ABD's Nigel Humphries. "Far from getting worse, the fuel economy of the average new car is improving all the time as new technology improves efficiency. A typical Ford Mondeo now does 45-50mpg instead of the 30-35mpg of ten years ago."
Using Car Tax as a stick to punish those who need a large car because they have a large family, or because they need to tow heavy trailers, is totally unjust. The proposal is doubly unfair as, unlike fuel tax, it takes no account of actual mileage travelled by a vehicle nor the actual fuel consumed. "Fears of an American style gas guzzling truck boom are unfounded," continued Humphries. "Unlike the US, nearly 80% of the cost of fuel in this country is tax. This has severely restricted sales of larger engined cars."
This suggestion by the EST is an assault on cars that farmers actually need will be deeply unpopular in the countryside, representing as it does the latest element in the activists' class war and the moves to redistribute wealth.
There is also a strong safety concern with this proposal. People will be encouraged to use small cars for purposes for which they are not fit — towing large trailers and carrying many passengers.
The Government should know better than to follow this foolish advice and scapegoat a minority of the population through extortionate taxation. It would be more useful for the EST and the DfT to pursue the role of nearly-empty buses that belch carcinogens through the country's streets while achieving atrocious fuel economy in single figure miles per gallon.
Meanwhile, the EST should be lobbying for ways to help our motor industry develop and introduce new hybrid technology to improve fuel efficiency and to use alternative fuels, like biodiesel, bioethanol and, eventually, hydrogen.
"Trouble is, waving a stick and scapegoating a minority of the population is always easier than doing something positive and strategic," concluded Humphries."
This must be a joke, musn't it?
Cheers
Mondorich
Active Member
Shude said:
Good
janner
MB Enthusiast
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Extra road tax is a good thing. The roads around here could do with improving.
Err, that's where the tax goes, right?
I'll get my coat!
Err, that's where the tax goes, right?
I'll get my coat!
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
What really makes me laugh is the gross hypocrisy of this. Ministers drive wifes 200 yards in big petrol guzzling Ministerial vehicles just so there hair does not get ruffled. The Prime Minister sometimes gets driven in a huge convey of again very large petrol engined vehicles from Downing Street just down the road to the House of Commons.
I obviously do not expect our Ministers to be put at risk, but if they want the public to show restraint then surely they should lead by example and use more suitable vehicles.
You never know the Diplomatic Protection Team's fleet of Range Rovers MIGHT be diesel powered.......
Had to duck for a flying pig. 
Regards,
John
I obviously do not expect our Ministers to be put at risk, but if they want the public to show restraint then surely they should lead by example and use more suitable vehicles.
You never know the Diplomatic Protection Team's fleet of Range Rovers MIGHT be diesel powered.......
Had to duck for a flying pig. Regards,
John
Dave Lewis
Active Member
glojo said:
There was a piece in the Independent today about ministers opting for Toyota Prius hybrids for ministerial transport. Quite a few have done this, apart from, of course, Johnny "2 Jags".
Some sort of legislation to adress emissions is inevitable, and frankly, welcome, looking at the big picture. How it's done is another matter.
Dave Lewis said:
Only if global warming 1. exists 2. is affected by man made by CO2
If global warming is happening (it really isn't proven yet) then it appears far more likely that its to do with the earth's variable relationship to the sun.
"The vast majority of climate scientists in the world seriously and objectively studies what it is that influences global climate changes. We don't hear as much from them in the media as we do from the far smaller but also far more vocal minority of climate scientists who make a living by publicizing alarmist and often outrageous claims about man's detrimental influence on the global climate.
Armed with the very real evidence of the global cooling trend during the first half of the 20th century, climate alarmists claimed in the 1970s that another ice age was imminent. Today they (including even some former proponents of a coming ice age, e. g.: Stephen Schneider), ride a wave of alarm about man-made catastrophic global warming, a wave of alarm they created and keep fueling .
Objective scientists find that the evidence supporting a man-made global warming trend is at best skimpy. However, it cannot and should not be denied that climate changes take place and that they have done so since long before man even made an appearance on Earth." Based on a 2003 NASA report.
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Dave Lewis said:
I will certainly keep my eyes open on this because it certainly does not appear to be happening.
Are these Toyota's made in Great Britain? For trips around London what is the matter with Ministerial Taxi's. Obviously not an actual hackney carriage, but having a government fleet of these British made economical, roomy vehicles?
John
Mondorich
Active Member
I reckon it's all a smokescreen. Whether or not it's climate change that people are fed as the reason for this debate, the fact remains that fossil fuels are running out and we ought to be using as little fuel per mile as we can in order to preserve these limited stocks [hypocrisy alert from driver of LR Defender, 28 MPG].
Taxing fuel is the perfect way of penalising "gas guzzler" drivers. Abolish the road fund licence and offset the revenue loss with more duty on fuel. Simple, unpopular and therefore unlikey ever to be adopted.
Taxing fuel is the perfect way of penalising "gas guzzler" drivers. Abolish the road fund licence and offset the revenue loss with more duty on fuel. Simple, unpopular and therefore unlikey ever to be adopted.
GRAV888
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Dieter said:Hi,
It seems to go from bad to worse
"London, 29 May 2005.
Proposals For £900 Car Tax Slammed As "Unnecessary, Unfair And Discriminatory"
The ABD today slammed proposals from the Energy Saving Trust to increase Road Tax (VED) from £165 to £900 PER YEAR on any car that does less than 35mpg.
If they did put it up to that, they could kiss my backside for it
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
GRAV888 said:If they did put it up to that, they could kiss my backside for it
So now were talking methane gas!!! My sense of humour is running away with itself here. Just imagine if.........
Sorry just recalling a silly film about a youngster who 'captured' his methane gas discharges to propel a rocket!!!
John
PJH
MB Enthusiast
And then claim it on expenses. So WE pay again.glojo said:
mercs600
New Member
I don't realy think it matters what us the general public say or do as the govenment still do what they want and we just roll over and accept it (re-the last fuel strikes - 18pence a gallon hike a month after the strikes! No one said or did a thing)
I think if we took the attitude of the French and said no and burnt a few items etc as they do we would eventually get somewhere.They seem to forget the public put them in power - but they don't listen when they're in!
As long as the general public just roll over and take it the government will just keep taxing us! - 86 pence in every £1 goes to the government - also as you say we get 'ripped off' with the vehicle excise duty - millions raised ans a 'naff all' percentage reinvested in the transport system (road repairs,public transport etc).Im not a non-conformist but im rapidly loosing confidence in a system that gives all to imigrants and does nothing but 'rob' its own population!
I think if we took the attitude of the French and said no and burnt a few items etc as they do we would eventually get somewhere.They seem to forget the public put them in power - but they don't listen when they're in!
As long as the general public just roll over and take it the government will just keep taxing us! - 86 pence in every £1 goes to the government - also as you say we get 'ripped off' with the vehicle excise duty - millions raised ans a 'naff all' percentage reinvested in the transport system (road repairs,public transport etc).Im not a non-conformist but im rapidly loosing confidence in a system that gives all to imigrants and does nothing but 'rob' its own population!
pentoman
Active Member
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- Nov 16, 2004
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- 92
There are two things at issue here:
1) Reducing greenhouse gases & fossil fuel use
2) Raising tax
One I agree with, one I do not. The worst aspect is that the government seem to choose 2) over 1) wherever possible:
I drive a large, inefficient, pollutant, non-catalyst old Mercedes 45 miles to and from work each day. I have this car because I have no choice - I sometimes need to carry lots of things and passengers, am very tall, and also like to be safe particularly on the long journeys I do.
So, as an economical and environmentally friendly person, I think to myself "why don't I buy another sensible commuting car (an A170 CDI tempts me.. or a smart car? electric car?) to go to work in every day and save some money and some ozone layer".
However, I can't because I would have to pay an extra £85-170 per year road tax (or whatever the cost is), to be allowed to use my super economical car on the road.
They need to scrap road tax, not increase it. This is a very obvious solution with many advantages and NO drawbacks apart from the loss of money. NONE. Hell they could even cover it with all the tax they take from fuel.
Then you'd pay just for fuel, a very neat simple "pay as you pollute" system.
Russ
1) Reducing greenhouse gases & fossil fuel use
2) Raising tax
One I agree with, one I do not. The worst aspect is that the government seem to choose 2) over 1) wherever possible:
I drive a large, inefficient, pollutant, non-catalyst old Mercedes 45 miles to and from work each day. I have this car because I have no choice - I sometimes need to carry lots of things and passengers, am very tall, and also like to be safe particularly on the long journeys I do.
So, as an economical and environmentally friendly person, I think to myself "why don't I buy another sensible commuting car (an A170 CDI tempts me.. or a smart car? electric car?) to go to work in every day and save some money and some ozone layer".
However, I can't because I would have to pay an extra £85-170 per year road tax (or whatever the cost is), to be allowed to use my super economical car on the road.
They need to scrap road tax, not increase it. This is a very obvious solution with many advantages and NO drawbacks apart from the loss of money. NONE. Hell they could even cover it with all the tax they take from fuel.
Then you'd pay just for fuel, a very neat simple "pay as you pollute" system.
Russ
Dave Lewis
Active Member
glojo said:
John, here's the Independent item.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/environment/story.jsp?story=642854
I think the Prius is Japanese built. Their CO2 figures are about half that of a taxi. Sure, it's only a gesture, but a step in the right direction I think. Interestingly, most of the nasty emissions produced by a car during it's lifetime occur during manufacture.
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Dave Lewis said:
Hi Dave,
Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to post the link. I note that they are being, ""symbolically be driven at the G8 summit at Gleneagles in July""
"""8 Ministers"""" in the Labour Government.
This bought a smile to my face, I wonder who the eight are and were they entitled to a 'proper' Ministerial car?? This government and no doubt every other government before them really pay great attention to the wording. I apologise big time for posting the list, but it highlights how the detail is in the reading.
Regards,
John
This is a full list of Her Majesty's Government as at 10 May 2005
The Cabinet Prime Minister, First Lord of the Treasury and Minister for the Civil Service
The Rt Hon Tony Blair MP
Deputy Prime Minister and First Secretary of State
The Rt Hon John Prescott MP
Chancellor of the Exchequer
The Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP
Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs
The Rt Hon Jack Straw MP
Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
The Rt Hon David Blunkett MP
Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
The Rt Hon Margaret Beckett MP
Secretary of State for Transport, and Secretary of State for Scotland
The Rt Hon Alistair Darling MP
Secretary of State for Defence
The Rt Hon Dr John Reid MP
Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons
The Rt Hon Geoff Hoon MP
Secretary of State for Health
The Rt Hon Patricia Hewitt MP
Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport
The Rt Hon Tessa Jowell MP
Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury and Chief Whip
The Rt Hon Hilary Armstrong MP
Secretary of State for the Home Department
The Rt Hon Charles Clarke MP
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and Secretary of State for Wales
The Rt Hon Peter Hain MP
Minister without Portfolio
The Rt Hon Ian McCartney MP
Leader of the House of Lords and Lord President of the Council
The Rt Hon Baroness Amos
Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor
The Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC
Secretary of State for International Development
The Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP
Secretary of State for Trade and Industry
The Rt Hon Alan Johnson MP
Secretary of State for Education and Skills
The Rt Hon Ruth Kelly MP
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Minister for the Cabinet Office)
The Rt Hon John Hutton MP
Chief Secretary to the Treasury
The Rt Hon Des Browne MP
Minister of Communities and Local Government
The Rt Hon David Miliband MP
Also attending CabinetChief Whip, Lords, Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms
The Rt Hon Lord Grocott
Attorney General
The Rt Hon Lord Goldsmith QC
Minister of State for Europe in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
The Rt Hon Douglas Alexander MP
Ministers by Department (excluding Cabinet Ministers and Ministers attending Cabinet)Law Officers
Solicitor General
Mike O'Brien MP
Advocate General for Scotland
Baroness Clark QC
Office of the Deputy Prime MinisterMinister of State
Yvette Cooper MP
Phil Woolas MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Jim Fitzpatrick MP
Baroness Andrews OBE
Cabinet OfficeParliamentary Secretary
Jim Murphy MP
HM TreasuryPaymaster General
The Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo MP
Financial Secretary
John Healey MP
Economic Secretary
Ivan Lewis MP
Office of the Leader of the House of Commons Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Parliamentary Secretary)
Nigel Griffiths MP
Department for Constitutional AffairsMinister of State
The Rt Hon Harriet Harman QC MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Baroness Ashton of Upholland
Bridget Prentice MP
Foreign and Commonwealth OfficeMinister for the Middle East
Dr Kim Howells MP
Minister for Trade (also DTI)
Ian Pearson MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Lord Triesman
Home OfficeMinister of State
The Rt Hon Hazel Blears MP
The Rt Hon Baroness Scotland of Asthal QC
Tony McNulty MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Paul Goggins MP
Fiona Mactaggart MP
Andy Burnham MP
Department for Environment, Food and Rural AffairsMinister of State
Elliot Morley MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Ben Bradshaw MP
Lord Bach
Jim Knight MP
Department for International DevelopmentParliamentary Secretary
Gareth Thomas MP
Department for Work and PensionsMinister of State (Work)
The Rt Hon Margaret Hodge MP MBE
Minister of State (Pensions)
Stephen Timms MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Lord Hunt of Kingsheath OBE
Anne McGuire MP
James Plaskitt MP
Department for TransportMinister of State
Dr Stephen Ladyman MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Derek Twigg MP
Karen Buck MP
Department of HealthMinister of State
Rosie Winterton MP
The Rt Hon Jane Kennedy MP
Lord Warner
Parliamentary Secretary
Caroline Flint MP
Liam Byrne MP
Northern Ireland OfficeMinister of State
Lord Rooker
David Hanson MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Angela Smith MP
Shaun Woodward MP
Ministry of DefenceMinister of State
The Rt Hon Adam Ingram MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Don Touhig MP
Lord Drayson
Scotland OfficeParliamentary Secretary
David Cairns MP
Department for Trade and IndustryMinister of State
The Rt Hon Alun Michael MP
Minister for Energy
Malcolm Wicks MP
Minister for Trade (also FCO)
Ian Pearson MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Gerry Sutcliffe MP
Barry Gardiner MP
Lord Sainsbury of Turville
Meg Munn MP (Reporting to the Rt Hon Tessa Jowell MP on equality issues)
Department for Education and SkillsMinister of State (Schools)
The Rt Hon Jacqui Smith MP
Minister of State (Universities)
Bill Rammell MP
Minister of State (Children)
The Rt Hon Beverley Hughes MP
Parliamentary Secretary
Maria Eagle MP
Phil Hope MP
Andrew Adonis
Department for Culture, Media and SportMinister of State
The Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP
Parliamentary Secretary
David Lammy MP
James Purnell MP
Wales OfficeParliamentary Secretary
Nick Ainger MP
House Of LordsDeputy Chief Whip (Captain of the Queen's Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard)
Lord Davies of Oldham
Government Whip (Lord or Baroness in Waiting)
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
Lord Bassam of Brighton
Baroness Crawley
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting CBE
Lord McKenzie of Luton[1]
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
House Of Commons Deputy Chief Whip, Commons (Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household)
Rt Hon Bob Ainsworth MP
Government Whip, Commons (Comptroller of Her Majesty's Household)
Rt Hon Thomas McAvoy MP
Government Whip, Commons (Vice Chamberlain of Her Majesty's Household)
John Heppell MP
Government Whip, Commons (Lord Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury)
Gillian Merron MP
Vernon Coaker MP
Tom Watson MP
Dave Watts MP
Joan Ryan MP
Assistant Government Whip, House of Commons
Frank Roy MP
Ian Cawsey MP
Alan Campbell MP
Claire Ward MP
Parmjit Dhanda MP
Tony Cunningham MP
Kevin Brennan MP
Parliamentary Private Secretary To The Prime Minister
The Rt Hon Keith Hill MP
I wonder who will have the Toyota's!!!!
Pietre
Active Member
Do we just count up 8 from the bottom, or is that the cynic in me coming out again. The rest will be in real cars...........oooooops sorry.
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Pietre said:
I bet the cars are 'available' for any of them. I was amazed at the length of the list. Talk about having to many chiefs and not enough red indians.
Oops sorry, To many chiefs, and not enough native americans
John
Edit
The Full list of Government Minister was located at:
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page2988.asp
Last edited:
Pietre
Active Member
Shame we cant tax the gov for the amount of hot air and gasses emitted by the members of both houses when debating this issue.
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