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Speed limits and maths

I think you have missed the point.

The preconception that speed is a killer has been proven wrong. It is INAPPROPRIATE use of speed that is the problem.

I agree, but how do you enforce 'inappropriate' speed effectively? It's impossible. One has to go for a reasonable (lower) estimate that works for most drivers and most cars in most weather most of the time in most parts of the country. The national 30 limit is about right for roads with many pedestrians around. It should be 20 in more residential streets, and maybe 40 on urban thoroughfares. The 60 limit on small, winding country roads is crazy: I think it should be 50 on single carriageway rural roads.

Of course, a 30 limit seems crazy when it's the middle of the night and nobody is around. ;)
 
The 60 limit on small, winding country roads is crazy: I think it should be 50 on single carriageway rural roads.
But it isn't crazy. On winding country roads the road alignment and/or visibility almost invariably prevents people driving anywhere near NSL, yet all but a very, very, small minority of drivers can happily adjust their speed to navigate the road safely. Conversely, if the alignment and visibility is adequate to support driving at NSL safely then why does it need a 50mph limit? Those who couldn't adjust their speed to permit safe passage in my first example are highly unlikely to do so just because a lower limit is posted.

You have (maybe inadvertantly) accurately described exactly why the blanket use of speed limits that are lower than what most drivers would consider reasonable are dangerous: when there is a real need for a low limit, they will ignore it.
 
How a temporary 30mph limit is enforced through the night even when the workers are not working on it and all their machinery and cones have been cleared is meant to save the lives of the absent workers, is beyond me.
i guess i am just paranoid.

Point taken, sorry.
Though if road works are still not completed this may also imply that safety barriers are not up and road surfaces are not suitable for cars to use in an emergency.

Not just about saving the lives of the workforce, it's for everyone's safety.

How often is all machinery cleared? I've never noticed it to be completely clear - maybe some parked in safe areas, but not often. Same goes for materials like piles of aggregate, stacks of kerbstones, etc. All of them unforgiving when hit by a car.

As wemorgan suggests there are other considerations. Another is the width of the lanes which are available to traffic - the narrower they are then the lower the limit needs to be.

Also roadworks provide a distraction to drivers - anything out of the norm can take people's attention from driving to looking around.

Whilst it can be frustrating at times, I've long since taken the view that it's best to slow down, hit cruise control or speed limiter, and wait until I'm through before I accelerate back up to normal cruising speed. It barely adds any time to the journey.
 
Personally I think that the real issue is that the focus on speed limit compliance in both UK traffic law and law enforcement has raised the perceived importance of those limits far above where they truly sit as an indicator of good or bad driving. Does anyone with a true understanding of the subject really, honestly, believe that travelling at posted limit -1 mph = good, safe driving, while travelling at posted limit +1 mph = dangerous, antisocial behaviour? Of course not. Safe driving is about far more than speed limit compliance, yet that's the message that the anti-speed lobby has tried, and at least partially succeeded, in portraying.

The fact is that people do routinely exceed the posted limit yet do not expose themselves or others to undue risk. The speed limit can be (and should be) an effective proxy that indicates to the driver the sort of behaviour that is expected, but the "slower is safer" school of road safety has resulted in many unncecessarily low limits being introduced. Unfortunately, this diminishes the worth of all speed limits as people routinely encounter these artificially low limits and exceed them with no ill effects (except, perhaps, the risk of points on their licence). It's little wonder then that people feel hard done by when an automated, or otherwise rigid and formulaic, enforcement system detects them breaking a speed limit and they receive a sanction for doing so.

Police officers often talk about the "attitude test" when they stop a driver, and for good reason. Most (perhaps all?) of us who have been driving for many years can probably tell a tale of how we were stopped for speeding by a real life police officer and given a stern talking to and sent on our way. Most of us would admit that a) we deserved to be stopped, and b) we learned that what we were doing wasn't acceptable and that any repetition would be met with some form of sanction. If, however, we adopted the "there was nothing wrong with what I was doing" approach with said officer we would probably have received a ticket. That's not because the officer was on a power trip, it was because they used their judgement to decide whether we'd received the message they were trying to get across or not, and whether or not we would learn from it. Automated "justice" by post can never achieve that, and neither can rigid "it's either black or white" enforcement by a police officer at the roadside.

Properly set, appropriate, speed limits can be a valuable tool to guide safe driving. Couple that with sensible enforcement regimes to deal with those who drive inappropriately and they work very well. However, they cannot ever be the absolute arbiter of safe driving that the current focus upon them makes them out to be. The sooner everyone admits that, the sooner we can move on to more effective road safety policies and look forward to driving on safer roads.

Agreed..this is the crux of the matter:)
 
Marque, the new Sentencing Guidelines do graduate speeding penalties along the lines you suggest (although they don't match your penalties precisely!). Although only called 'guidelines' there is now a requirement for magistrates to consult them before sentencing (previously there was no such requirement in law) and reasons must be given when sentencing other than in accordance with the guidelines.

Speeding is dealt with on page 131. And another thing.......those who think courts deal more harshly with speeding motorists than burglars; have a look at the guideline on page 35.
http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/docs/magistrates_court_sentencing_guidelines_update.pdf
(this is a freely-available document by the way. Nothing odd about posting the link here).

Thanks

a ver useful piece of info and quite fascinating reading! well for some:devil: :)
 
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Speeding is dealt with on page 131. And another thing.......those who think courts deal more harshly with speeding motorists than burglars; have a look at the guideline on page 35.
http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/docs/magistrates_court_sentencing_guidelines_update.pdf
(this is a freely-available document by the way. Nothing odd about posting the link here).

we all know what the guidelines say.

I am sure they will also tell you that murder is a life sentence.
now lets count how many murderers are out and about laughing?

the real world which we all live in is different from the ones the policy makers live in.
 
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.......Other sly ones like £104 for storage and £4 a day pound storage also adds up......

£105 recovery charge and £14 per day storage fee. This is what the recovery association charge not the police. All the monies from recovery go to the recovery agent and any vehicle seized that is later found to be lawful (for whatever reason) the police pay the agent.

And I'm bored beyond belief with the recycled (pun intended) rants/moans/"OMG It's so unfair being a motorist in the UK" tirades about speed cameras/fines/stealth taxes/talivans/safety partnership etc threads. I'm off to poke my eyes out with a blunt cocktail stick :mad:
 
£105 recovery charge and £14 per day storage fee. This is what the recovery association charge not the police. All the monies from recovery go to the recovery agent and any vehicle seized that is later found to be lawful (for whatever reason) the police pay the agent.

And I'm bored beyond belief with the recycled (pun intended) rants/moans/"OMG It's so unfair being a motorist in the UK" tirades about speed cameras/fines/stealth taxes/talivans/safety partnership etc threads. I'm off to poke my eyes out with a blunt cocktail stick :mad:


Listen if you are bored then go and rant somewhere else okay. I am entitled within the forum rules to state my personal experience of certain things i feel. Until now i do not recall a personal attack and if i cannot say how i feel about certain professions, then no one should say anything about mechanics, energy companies, dealerships, or tyre companies too. As people work in them.

hiding behind recovery agents that belong to or are in partnership with the police/ councils is just laughable.

I am sick and tired of listening to your (we are so pure in mind and spirit never make a mistake perfect unmarked police force).:mad: from you and the regular associates.
motorists are being hammered and the sooner you realise it and stop hiding behind your guise of road safety the better.

And if i have to say it , i will. I am sick of the holier than thou attitude.
maybe you do not realise i have met good and bad in every profession,police included as i have said before but if you give me personal attacks (pun intended) mate i will not be ready to let it go without charge.

And if you are not happy with the policies set by the state then do something about it verbally and vocally instead of hiding behind guidelines that enforce certain laws to the letter, then adjust others around their own time and pace.
 
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I'm off to poke my eyes out with a blunt cocktail stick :mad:


I shall report you to the HSE if you do...


use a sharp one. That way you can stand in court and say it was "fit for purpose"

would you get away with speeding after, using the defence you can't see the speed limit and felt it was okay?



ona serious point, I do think the people who are stating, its not the police, but the rules that need looking at, do have a point. However, they are looked at from more than just the point of view of whether or not its safe to drive at the maximum speed for that area.

They also get the local nanny brigade offering all manner of suprious reasons, and the amount of accidents and the costs involved in repairs,often to road signage, railings, road surface, walls etc that someone has to pay for. and by dropping a 40 to a 30 instantly makes those savings as no further accidents occur. Hence real world savings.

Then you get caught, and you moan.

hmmmmmm
 
I'm curious to know what those who propose high speed limits will do with the 5-10 mins saved from a journey travelling at these higher speeds? Is life so short that the minutes count for so much? Through my rose tinted spectacles I feel we should all slow down, relax, be more polite to other road users and enjoy our journeys more. It's a crazy dream I know :)
 
I couldn't care less if the speed limit was 1 mile an hour everywhere.
My gripe(which no one seems to understand here especially the - i know all brigade) is that arm of law enforcement and justice system should use the same vigour and even more in tackling all forms of law breaking all the time.
if there are scant resources, then prioritise the problems, not just chase ones that will result in fines and it is not just speeding, there is overfilled dustbins, someone smoking, kid dropped a sweet, et.c did not recycle a carton.
That is what i am on about, not just speeding. who cares if the limit is 2mph. I will not be caught donating my hard earned cash to any arm of the judiciary.

N.B I do not care about speeeeeeeeeeeeed.
I care about resources of law enforcement that seem to be chasing offences punishable by fines most of the time and law enforcement is not just police. there are council snoopers, judiciary ,e.t.c CSO
 
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Listen if you are bored then go and rant somewhere else okay.

Well you can't expect to tell him to stop ranting while going on doing it yourself... :D

I am entitled within the forum rules to state my personal experience of certain things i feel.

Quite right. But Unmarked was also quite entitled to state his opinion that they are pretty boring rants. :rolleyes:
 
Well you can't expect to tell him to stop ranting while going on doing it yourself... :D



Quite right. But Unmarked was also quite entitled to state his opinion that they are pretty boring rants. :rolleyes:

Join the club unmarked club then. his rants are getting personal and directed to me. i was talking about a section of the community and if he happens to work in that section, it does not mean he has to get personal with me.

when we moan about merc dealers, and a merc dealer member comes on here, is he entitled to have a personal dig at you:rolleyes:
 
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Not the kind of thing you would ever engage in, then? :rolleyes:

It is the one you are trying on right now or trying to engage. Especially when you have no point to make and nothing to add.
Much like your attempts to get thread closed by going way off topic:rolleyes:
 
I agree, but how do you enforce 'inappropriate' speed effectively? It's impossible. One has to go for a reasonable (lower) estimate that works for most drivers and most cars in most weather most of the time in most parts of the country.

My point was simply that Traffic enforcement is a specialist job that requires specialist Policing.By separating the Traffic policing from everyday policing everyone benefits, including the Police.

It is by education that our roads become safer - encouraging road users to THINK rather than have somebody say "it is safe to drive at this speed on this stretch of road" - the assumption by many ony limits.

I gve the example of the crawler along NSL who ignores speed limit through built up area. Are they so unobservant? in which case all the more reason they should go even slowwer in the built up area.

The crawlers in the middle lane of three carrigeway motorways. Are they so ignorant of the road rules "keep left unless overtaking" - or so inept to control a car in a single lane?

The folks that switch on high intensity fog lights - and blast along at in excess of the speed limit. Do they think that 400 yd visability needs high intensity on? and if the conditions dictate, why not drive according to the conditions?

These are all examples of people who do not think through how they are driving. I could go on.

It is only by Education they will understand. Unfortunatly, the well placed tug by a traffic plod with a clip round the ear and a point out of what was wrong was the most eductaion drivers had after test. Now thats gone.

Education is NOT the arbitary fine from a falsely lowered and purposly placed speed limit.
 
Especially when you have no point to make and nothing to add.

Ahh, so you have the right to post your opinion, but I haven't if you think I don't add something to the discussion? :rolleyes:

But don't worry, I'm leaving this thread for what it is, I have more interesting things to do with my life than to engage in yet another vitriolic exchange. :D Enjoy the day!
 
yawn.
I am already enjoying it.
 
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