The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

Maybe the Leaf is indicative of the entire roundabout of views on the future of electric vehicles.
Just maybe a lot of folks think they are painfully ugly, dreadful to drive and wouldn’t want one if they were completely FOC. And that’s putting the ‘range anxiety’ debate to one side. Listening to customers I can only speak as I find as always.

I certainly think most EVs are painfully ugly, dreadful to drive and wouldn’t want one even if it was FOC

But what was being debated here was whether they’re being scrapped because of batteries and whether parts and batteries were capable of being recycled.

Which obviously they are.

People who bought Leafs in 2013 have moved on. For lots of exciting reasons. They’re not as change phobic as the typical rural geriatric.

Should they have bought a CL500 and kissed goodbye to £90,000 - and seen a lot of repair bills / over the same time? Opinions vary

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That was exactly my question. Old battery packs being fitted as replacements clearly didn't come from Leafs that have been scrapped due to battery failure. The mechanical side of an electric drivetrain is pretty simple & reliable, so what is it that's killing Leafs off?

Your comment, once again, was

“As an aside I was mildly surprised that they had a ready stock of old/used Leaf batteries ready to fit. Does that suggest these cars get scrapped for reasons other than battery failure? Some must get written off in accidents of course, but I wouldn't have thought that many”

You simply don’t understand why normal people write off and update their vehicles.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

What kind of significant mechanical failure would a small EV suffer from?

Motor and transmission. There are far fewer moving parts than in an ICE but can fail, and the cost of replacement - including labour - would be significant proportion of the value of an aged inexpensive EV. More likely multiple repairs and maintenance items adding up, like ball joints, suspension components, brakes and other things which in isolation wouldn’t mean the car would be scrapped but combined become difficult to justify.

 

[Dryce]

Interesting, if ‘range’ wasn’t a consideration, in what way is an EV worse than the typical car ‘a lot of folk’ drive?

Price.

 

[Dryce]

Motor and transmission. There are far fewer moving parts than in an ICE but can fail, and the cost of replacement - including labour - would be significant proportion of the value of an aged inexpensive EV. More likely multiple repairs and maintenance items adding up, like ball joints, suspension components, brakes and other things which in isolation wouldn’t mean the car would be scrapped but combined become difficult to justify.

I think we see the situation with ICE vehicles that simple wear and tear components - ball joints and bushes and bearings wear. Then there are things like A/C and ICE bits which can be expensive. And electronics components can be appallingly priced.

If owners could refurbish their vehicles in a straightforward fashion then I think we'd see more older vehicles in reasonable fettle. Instead what happens is the wear and tera stuff gets done piecemeal or delayed (so an older car feels worse over that delay).

If we had refurb packs for cars and reasonable labour rates because it was a standard supported service then you could put your car in for a day at the dealer and it comes out fresh with another 5 years decent life then I think we'd see more quality older cars that held heir value.

But that would require a sector attitude shift.

 

[markjay]

Suspension?

Also, the motor or other electric/electronic components might fail, and - again - if the car's value is low, it will become 'beyond economic repair'.

 

[markjay]

I think we see the situation with ICE vehicles that simple wear and tear components - ball joints and bushes and bearings wear. Then there are things like A/C and ICE bits which can be expensive. And electronics components can be appallingly priced.

If owners could refurbish their vehicles in a straightforward fashion then I think we'd see more older vehicles in reasonable fettle. Instead what happens is the wear and tera stuff gets done piecemeal or delayed (so an older car feels worse over that delay).

If we had refurb packs for cars and reasonable labour rates because it was a standard supported service then you could put your car in for a day at the dealer and it comes out fresh with another 5 years decent life then I think we'd see more quality older cars that held heir value.

But that would require a sector attitude shift.

True. There's also a balance to be struck here.

If you get cars to survive longer, then less new cars will be made, which is good for the planet, but bad for the economy.

See also Tony Blair's scrappage scheme that was intended to revive this sector of the economy following the 2007/2008 downturn.

 

[BTB 500]

Suspension?

Possible but you wouldn't think the cost of parts for a Nissan would render it unrepairable.

 

[BTB 500]

You simply don’t understand why normal people write off and update their vehicles.

Again, there's a difference between writing off and scrapping. A fair percentage of cars that normal people get rid of as beyond economic repair (for them) are sold on and end up back on the road.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Again, there's a difference between writing off and scrapping. A fair percentage of cars that normal people get rid of as beyond economic repair (for them) are sold on and end up back on the road.

You and I prefer to drive older cars, but we're not typical of the world,

which is why the average age of cars on the road is a mere nine years old,

and why people who actually scrap vehicles quote 14 years as the typical age at scrapping / recycling, obviously with many vehicles scrapped well before 14, as well as later.

 

[BTB 500]

Motor and transmission. There are far fewer moving parts than in an ICE but can fail, and the cost of replacement - including labour - would be significant proportion of the value of an aged inexpensive EV.

Yes, possible. But these are pretty simple/reliable on an EV and we're talking about a short range 'shopping car' that's only been on sale since 2011.

More likely multiple repairs and maintenance items adding up, like ball joints, suspension components, brakes and other things which in isolation wouldn’t mean the car would be scrapped but combined become difficult to justify.

As already mentioned somebody in the trade will typically fix stuff like this and sell the car on - there's always a ready market for small/cheap cars. As above these Leafs aren't particularly old and most won't have done mega miles either.

 

[BTB 500]

You and I prefer to drive older cars, but we're not typical of the world,

which is why the average age of cars on the road is a mere nine years old,

and why people who actually scrap vehicles quote 14 years as the typical age at scrapping / recycling, obviously with many vehicles scrapped well before 14, as well as later.

You are talking generalities and averages whereas I'm trying to discuss a specific car.

Small low mileage cars typically lead a pretty easy life and are in strong demand when older as cheap shopping/commuting cars, first cars for kids, etc.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Another busy late Saturday morning at Sainsbury's in Exeter.

As a Tesla hogs one of the twelve high speed chargers in the car park.

It's so difficult finding a charger on the last weekend of the Easter School holidays.

Eleven chargers waiting for DfL's and locals to do a quick top up while they're shopping

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You are talking generalities and averages whereas I'm trying to discuss a specific car.

Small low mileage cars typically lead a pretty easy life and are in strong demand when older as cheap shopping/commuting cars, first cars for kids, etc.

Oh really? My usual recommendation, along with Matt Prior of Autocar, is the Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec.

Fabulous cheap driver's car made up to 2009. Nearly a quarter of a million sold.

But sadly a quarter of them (180,000) have been written off now, leaving just 60,000 on the road.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

As already mentioned somebody in the trade will typically fix stuff like this and sell the car on - there's always a ready market for small/cheap cars. As above these Leafs aren't particularly old and most won't have done mega miles either.

Depends on the overall condition of the car, sentimental value, actual value, mileage and what is required to make it right. Some will justify it, some won’t. It doesn’t take much to make an invaluable car unviable to repair.

Lets’s assume a 2014 Nissan Leaf with a relatively light build up of repairs and maintenance, all straight forward stuff. Let’s assume that there will be a discount which will vary, so we’ll just assume that covers the labour cost.

All prices are from Euro Car Parts:
£290 - Disks and pads
£630 - 2x front dampers
£210 - 1x CV boot with fitting kit
£110 - 1x 12v battery

That’s £1240, all easily required on a 10 year old car with average mileage and typical maintenance. Throw in tyres, electrical fault or more complex repair and sensible labour costs and it’s getting close to the value of the car.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Oh really? My usual recommendation, along with Matt Prior, is the Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec.

Fabulous cheap driver's car made up to 2009. Nearly a quarter of a million sold.

But sadly a quarter of them (180,000) have been written off now, leaving just 60,000 on the road.





View attachment 155592

I was just doing the same thing - with the same car - but you beat me to it! Great minds

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The other thing to consider is that EV breaking is a niche thing with a limited number of EV specialists interested in the parts. Not really a surprise that one of a handful of Leaf specialists have a selection of used batteries.

I’m making this up but it would not be a surprise to find out that they had a quarter of all available Leaf batteries. Compare that to a Focus, and most breakers will have one or more, and every garage would be a potential buyer.

 

[BTB 500]

Oh really? My usual recommendation, along with Matt Prior, is the Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec.

Fabulous cheap driver's car made up to 2009. Nearly a quarter of a million sold.

But sadly a quarter of them (180,000) have been written off now, leaving just 60,000 on the road.

That's a car that ended production 2 years before the Leaf first went on sale - the oldest examples will be 24 years old now. As a 1.6 it's also outside the small/cheap/1st car/etc. bracket.

 

[BTB 500]

Another busy late Saturday morning at Sainsbury's in Exeter.

As a Tesla hogs one of the twelve high speed chargers in the car park.

It's so difficult finding a charger on the last weekend of the Easter School holidays.

Eleven chargers waiting for DfL's and locals to do a quick top up while they're shopping


View attachment 155591

All we need now is for some people to start buying EVs ...

 

[BTB 500]

Depends on the overall condition of the car, sentimental value, actual value, mileage and what is required to make it right. Some will justify it, some won’t. It doesn’t take much to make an invaluable car unviable to repair.

Lets’s assume a 2014 Nissan Leaf with a relatively light build up of repairs and maintenance, all straight forward stuff. Let’s assume that there will be a discount which will vary, so we’ll just assume that covers the labour cost.

£290 - Disks and pads
£630 - 2x front dampers
£210 - 1x CV boot with fitting kit
£110 - 1x 12v battery

That’s £1240 annd easily be required for a 10 year old car with average mileage and typical maintenance. Throw in the need for tyres, electrical fault or more complex repair and sensible labour costs and it’s getting close to the value of the car.

I thought brake disks etc. lasted practically forever on an EV with regen braking? Particularly one used predominantly for short/local/low speed trips? Because of the limited range even when new many of these cars will have done little mileage e.g. the 44k on the 2010(?) example in the video.

I don't think I've ever replaced front dampers on any car (I've had several that have gone well over 150k miles). And I can't see that the 12V battery on an EV would lead a very hard life - presumably it just runs the on-board electronics.

??