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The EV fact thread

So a smaller, lighter, lower capacity lithium battery can outperform a larger, heavier, higher capacity lead acid battery.

Not quite. It will perform the same as a higher capacity lead/acid battery (100 Ah in my example) in terms of cranking the engine over continuously. It will certainly be smaller and lighter - no doubt about that.

Back to your previous comment (below) do you still think that 60 Ah is still very low for a big engine unlikely to be used every day?

It's not ideal - a lead/acid battery of even the same capacity would last much longer with a continuous low current draw (e.g. parasitic drain from the on-board systems when parked). This may or may not be an issue in practice depending on the state of charge when parked, how often the car is used, whether it's kept on a maintenance charger, etc. But per the MBWorld thread that @grober linked to an AMG GT owner in Germany felt it could do with more capacity:

Would also like to bring the capacity to the possible maximum.
There are MB lithium batteries with more capacity.
These have the same dimensions and use (to the best of my knowledge) the same internal parts except for the individual cells.

Plus other comments about the setup:

Hi,

Had "problems" with the lithium battery.

Car charging system only charges up to 80% (You can write a book about the GT charging and protection system)
The lithium battery in the GT is only 60 Ah The battery has internal protection. Also until shutdown.
ithium batteries can also "debalance"

Cars that are driven less often are more likely to be affected.

My experience is that even good chargers don't really help. (Have tested several, including normal C-Tek)

What works is the MB charger.

If you have the original Mercedes Trickle Charger. (Only this one)

Connect.
Important for lithium batteries: Press the "Reset" button for about 5 seconds (until an LED lights up)
12 hours charging.
Repeat this 2-3 times. (Balance takes a long time)

Try it. You can always buy an expensive battery.

It is recommended to use the Trickle Charger preventively from time to time.

You mentioned getting a quote for a new Li battery for yours when it was under 3 years old, but it wasn't 100% clear whether it actually had to be replaced then? Do you use a trickle charger?
 
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Not quite. It will perform the same as a higher capacity lead/acid battery (100 Ah in my example) in terms of cranking the engine over continuously. It will certainly be smaller and lighter - no doubt about that.



It's not ideal - a lead/acid battery of even the same capacity would last much longer with a continuous low current draw (e.g. parasitic drain from the on-board systems when parked). This may or may not be an issue in practice depending on the state of charge when parked, how often the car is used, whether it's kept on a maintenance charger, etc. But per the MBWorld thread that @grober linked to an AMG GT owner in Germany felt it could do with more capacity:



Plus other comments about the setup:



You mentioned getting a quote for a new Li battery for yours when it was under 3 years old, but it wasn't 100% clear whether it actually had to be replaced then? Do you use a trickle charger?
The battery was draining very quickly and it took lots of head scratching because it would drain at home within 24 hours, but wouldn’t drain in 24 days at the main dealer. AMG technicians at the main dealer and in Germany were stumped.

It was eventually me who worked it out, there’s an option to connect your phone to the car for real time recording of telemetry data whilst on track. It turns out that my phone would be in WiFi range when ant home and maintain a connection.

The car wouldn’t go to sleep whilst the WiFi was active and so the battery would be isolated by the BMS. Hence when I’m the car was at the dealership my phone wasn’t in range and the car shut down as normal.

AMG Technical (Germany) asked that I leave it off the trickle charge until at least the problem returned, because they had wrongly assumed that the trickle charger was keeping the car awake, as that can happen if not wired in correctly.

They said the nature of a lithium battery meant that it could be left all winter without a trickle charger and it would start first time because the rate of natural depletion (without a drain fault) is almost zero, and would remain so for the life of the car.

They explained that the lithium battery is intended to last the life of the car, and replacement would only be expected to be caused by unlikely failure of the BMS not the battery itself, and hence the quote for a replacement battery (potential BMS fault).

I can leave it for 3 months (not on trickle) and it will fire immediately. I have similar cars with similar engines with AGM batteries and they moan if left for a month without trickle, I wouldn’t risk leaving them longer than 6 weeks with being hooked up.

AMGs advice was to alternate trickle charging every other week or two on the cars with AGM batteries, but to do it pop the lithium battery on charge no more than once or twice per year until it’s fully charged.

Almost all of the cars have a trickle charger but I follow the advice from AMG and periodically trickle the cars with AGM, and then disconnect for a while, as they said the exercise does them good. Cars with lithium stay off trickle.

One exception it all, is Ferrari Technical advice was to ensure that all cars regardless of battery type should be on a trickle when parked at home, even overnight. Still doesn’t mean they’ll start though because even on trickle they can discharge…
 
As mentioned Fiat/Stellantis have just extended production of the petrol Panda until 2030 and are now looking at making a petrol version of the electric Fiat 500e to sell once new EU regs. mean they can no longer sell the current petrol 500 (not related to the 500e - it's an older design, built in Poland).

Fiat have now confirmed they are going ahead with converting the 500e to use a petrol ICE - on sale early 2026:


Plenty of EVs have been created by modifying ICE designs of course, but I think this is the first to go the other way? From a mainstream manufacturer anyway.
 
Looks like there may be some back-pedalling on the tariffs for importing Chinese built EVs into the EU:

BERLIN, July 16 (Reuters) - The European Commission has signalled to Volkswagen and BMW that it may consider lowering tariffs on the two carmakers' imports of China-made EVs, two sources with knowledge of the matter said.
The European Commission was willing to classify the two carmakers as so-called cooperating companies, the sources said, making them eligible for a 20.8% tariff on their China-made models, down from a tariff of 37.6% under current plans.

BMW's China-made electric Mini and Volkswagen's Cupra Tavascan, produced by the SEAT brand, were not part of Brussels' sample analysis in the run-up to the tariff announcement, which means they were automatically subjected to the highest tariff level.
If agreed, it would be a first, early compromise by Brussels on tariffs that will hurt some of Europe's top car manufacturers because they make cars in China and import them to the region.

The German car industry has also opposed the tariffs because it is worried about retaliation from China, where German automakers made a third of their revenue last year. U.S. carmaker Tesla has asked for its own tariff rate.
The decision was not yet final, said the two sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter. Volkswagen declined to comment. BMW was not immediately available for comment.

 
Planning a lot of miles in the Fiat 500e so needed to find a charger even in a small rural town there were multiple options.

Opted for Osprey at a garden centre and all six chargers are working, all six were free and will be when I leave, and I plugged in, scanned my card, and it started charging.

7.5 kw in 15 minutes gas added 40 miles whilst I sat in air conditioned comfort. I’ll leave it a while longer whilst I pop for a wee by which time it willl be 100%.

What a $hit $how EV ownership is turning out to be 😀
 
Meanwhile in the news today:

Stellantis is telling the owners of more than 24,000 plug-in hybrid minivans to park them outdoors away from buildings, and to stop charging them due to the possibility of battery fires.

The company said Thursday that it's recalling certain 2017 through 2021 Chrysler Pacifica plug-in hybrids, mainly in North America. Some are being recalled for a second time. All can still be driven.

Stellantis, maker of Jeep, Chrysler, Ram and other vehicle brands, said its investigation is ongoing but the company has linked the problem to a rare abnormality in individual battery cells. The risk of fires is reduced when the battery is depleted.

A company review of warranty data discovered seven fires within the group of vans being recalled. All happened when the vehicles were turned off, and some occurred during charging, Stellantis said. Four customers reported symptoms of smoke inhalation.

 
And also:

Ford has hit reverse on its plans to sell only electric cars in Europe from the end of the decade, the chief operating officer of its EV division has said.

In an interview with Autocar, Marin Gjaja, the boss at Ford Model E, said 'uncertainty' around EV demand and legislation has forced it to shelve the target of 2030 for ditching petrol and diesel models.

He said 2030 was 'too ambitious' as he confirmed the company would continue offering new hybrid cars in Europe beyond that date.

 
If EVs stop being purchased and manufactured - and EVs already on the road fade away due to rapid battery degradation and fires - then the insufficient and flaky charging infrastructure and woeful under capacity in power generation & transmission will end up being ample afterall.
 
Its strange that they say that they will stop building so many EVs as customers are unsure etc.....people will buy new car whatever as they need them.....if none of the makers build any ICE cars then those people will have no choice but to buy EV. Are they suggesting that they wont by new cars at all??.....unlikely. Sure all the time there is choice a certain % will choose ICE.......but as much as I don't like EVs, if I was a regular new car buyer and wanted a new car I would have no choice but to buy an new EV if that all they made!!!!
I used to sell pop top campers at work.....but we didn't sell many....so we stopped.....and would you believe it we don't sell any pop tops any more....looks like I was right to stop stocking them then!!!
I often think that they might sell more if they fired all the EV marketing teams are got new ones in.....most EV ads are totally crap with either lots of nice scenery or a good looking/famous driver getting the attention. Forget that and the green/pollution stuff.... that does not sell cars to petrol heads....and sell them on being fast, cheap to run, lots of space for dogs, long range, sharp handling (maybe one day!!) etc etc....the sort of reasons that non tree huggers buy cars for. The current ads all seem to be aimed at the sort of folks who probably already runs EVs....so at best they might steal a sale from another marque......rather than convert an ICE driver to EV.
 
Some interesting stuff in this article today (not just the continuing theme of slowing EV uptake):


Porsche has also been keen to emphasise its ability to react to swings in demand, with its factory in Leipzig capable of making fully electric cars, plug-in hybrids and combustion engines on one production line.

Flexibility does seem to be the key at the moment.

German car brands are particularly exposed to China, where EV sales have been hit by an economic slowdown and consumers are increasingly opting for cheaper, local models.

1721729758730.png

VW aren't mentioned ... presumably because they're selling locally built cars there? I wonder if those are also under-cut by domestic Chinese brands?


Porsche, meanwhile, is among several companies to have started production of e-fuel, synthetic petrol made using hydrogen generated with a renewable power source.

Didn't know that.
 
Legacy automakers find it hard to make a profit on their EVs - so they are desperate to continue making profitable ICE & hybrid vehicles as long as possible,
The cynic in me might even think that some of the awful EVs that are being made by legacy manufacturers are made that way to dissuade buyers from purchasing them - thus fulfilling their prophecy of “slow sales of EVs”
They are basically cunning, lying barstewards!
 
Some interesting stuff in this article today (not just the continuing theme of slowing EV uptake):




Flexibility does seem to be the key at the moment.



View attachment 159328

VW aren't mentioned ... presumably because they're selling locally built cars there? I wonder if those are also under-cut by domestic Chinese brands?




Didn't know that.
VW have been manufacturing and selling cars in China for decades, albeit in joint ventures with local Chinese manufactures as required by Chinese legislation. That probably means they manufacturer all of their volume models in China, with very few low volume models manufactured elsewhere.

Porsche have been pushing synthetic fuels for a while. It makes sense for them on two fronts, it hedges bets for new cars and enables them to position their older cars as being sustainable.
 
Porsche have been pushing synthetic fuels for a while. It makes sense for them on two fronts, it hedges bets for new cars and enables them to position their older cars as being sustainable.
And for that I praise Porsche. Reinventing methanol though is a step further than necessary.
 
VW have been manufacturing and selling cars in China for decades, albeit in joint ventures with local Chinese manufactures as required by Chinese legislation. That probably means they manufacturer all of their volume models in China, with very few low volume models manufactured elsewhere.

Indeed, but I wondered whether sales of VW models made in China were being affected there by the emergence of fully domestic brands like BYD. From a quick Google this does seems to be the case.
 
If EVs stop being purchased and manufactured - and EVs already on the road fade away due to rapid battery degradation and fires - then the insufficient and flaky charging infrastructure and woeful under capacity in power generation & transmission will end up being ample afterall.

🤣
 
Indeed, but I wondered whether sales of VW models made in China were being affected there by the emergence of fully domestic brands like BYD. From a quick Google this does seems to be the case.
Yeah but who doesn’t want to drive a YangWang?
 
...Porsche have been pushing synthetic fuels for a while. It makes sense for them on two fronts, it hedges bets for new cars and enables them to position their older cars as being sustainable...

It may help Porsche... but it won't help Fred Bloggs.

As someone who had an EV for 3 years now, I can tell you that the main obstacle stopping people from buying them is.... the price.

Yes, there are many other practical issues to varying degrees, but for the majority of customers, in most locations, these are more of an inconvenience than a 'show stopper'.

In part, EVs are expensive due to the tech, which will go down in price like tech does, but it will take a few years to get there. In part, it is due to the battery cost. But, in great part it is simply because manufacturers have been making luxury EVs, while neglecting the lower end of the market (well done, Dacia, BTW, for picking up the gauntlett).

In this context... Porsche's e-Fuel cars are unlikely to be cheap or affordable. And they won't help Fred Blogs when he can no longer purchase a new cheap ICE car.
 
Synthetic fuels are pointless.... why use loads of electricity to make it?....and it takes lots....to make a fuel, losing energy at every stage of production...and then burning in a car.... ending up woth about 20 % max of the energy you started with....... when you can use the electricity straight in the car at about 85 % efficiency.
It will only make sense environmentally or energy efficiency wise when we have more 100 percent renewable electricity than we know what to do with.... so thats never. And then there is the relatively tiny amounts they could make. It's just not a goer.....yet.

 

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