The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

Leasing an EV on a competitive deal de-risks any uncertainty though, and so in my humble opinion it’s the sensible thing to do, said the person who bought an EV for personal use

The logic works both ways. Leasing a non-EV also de-risks any uncertainty.

My experiences of visiting MB dealerships in the last two months - they just don't get why you wouldn't buy a ICE - and in particular a diesel if buying something larger. The assumptions are that in their market sector that a private buyer will go for a 3 year deal on the car - so why care what happens after that?

 

[Dryce]

I am currently in Norway, initially I was surprised at the number of Tesla cars on the road, seems that subsidies and cheap electricity do the trick for EVs in general, but the locals are very keen on Tesla in particular for some reason:

I commented back in 2014 about the number of Teslas in Norway - first time I had seen them in numbers (all Model S too - back that long ago).

Norway is unique. Not only does it have a relatively huge reserve of fossil fuels - but also bucket loads of hydro-electricity.

The cost of living makes a Tesla seem cheaper in relative terms. Add in some tax incentives (I was told back in 2014 that they were significant). And if Tesla are well established in the local market. What is not to like?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I commented back in 2014 about the number of Teslas in Norway - first time I had seen them in numbers (all Model S too - back that long ago).

Norway is unique. Not only does it have a relatively huge reserve of fossil fuels - but also bucket loads of hydro-electricity.

The cost of living makes a Tesla seem cheaper in relative terms. Add in some tax incentives (I was told back in 2014 that they were significant). And if Tesla are well established in the local market. What is not to like?

Does that mean you want to give every EV buyer comparable tax breaks?

And generate the replacement taxes (roughly £40 billion a year) in some other way? Increased income taxes maybe?

Removing Winter fuel allowance for grannies has saved a couple of billion. We just need another twenty of those changes to offset the tax breaks of eliminating petrol, diesel and car taxes.

Norway: the country that has $1,200,000,000,000 squirrelled away in its Sovereign wealth fund. The biggest fund of its kind in the world. Shared by a tiny population of just four million adults.

 

[Dryce]

Does that mean you want to give every EV buyer comparable tax breaks?

I don't think that post inferred that I wanted anything. It was just a comment as an addendum to @markjay 's post about the prevalence of Tesla in Norway.

The UK is not Norway.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The logic works both ways. Leasing a non-EV also de-risks any uncertainty.

My experiences of visiting MB dealerships in the last two months - they just don't get why you wouldn't buy a ICE - and in particular a diesel if buying something larger. The assumptions are that in their market sector that a private buyer will go for a 3 year deal on the car - so why care what happens after that?

If we “know” that leasing or “finance” moves the risk from the user to the lessor (broad terms, no need to be too technical), what happens when the leasing company makes a greater than expected loss?

Does it sell at severely written down prices?
Or does it shift the used Ioniq5’s onto other users?
And does it then increase the lease rates for new customers because of the now established poor residuals?

Exciting because the EV boom of 2020 is now reaching “disposal time.” And the industry is desperate to sell new models to all those Makkah types who are three or four years in.

Without decent residuals, there is no real fresh market for new EV’s…. It’s not just a finance house problem.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I don't think that post inferred that I wanted anything. It was just a comment as an addendum to @markjay 's post about the prevalence of Tesla in Norway.

The UK is not Norway.

Fair point. I was just reacting to your comment “what’s not to like?”

“What’s not to like” is that to give that degree of subsidy to the car and fuel industry we would have to dramatically increase taxes to make up more than the £40 billion loss of fuel and motor industry taxes.

Not that I have any objection to pushing the working class onto bicycles, motorbikes and buses. It works for Italy, why not us? But “other opinions are available.”

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

We sold 600,000 EV’s in the 24 months of 2020 and 2021. Mainly to people with an enormous tax break.

Who’s going to buy those cars this year when they hit the second user market, and at what price?

At first glance, the used car buyers still seem very sceptical….

 

[poormansporsche]

If we “know” that leasing or “finance” moves the risk from the user to the lessor (broad terms, no need to be too technical), what happens when the leasing company makes a greater than expected loss?

Does it sell at severely written down prices?
Or does it shift the used Ioniq5’s onto other users?
And does it then increase the lease rates for new customers because of the now established poor residuals?

Exciting because the EV boom of 2020 is now reaching “disposal time.” And the industry is desperate to sell new models to all those Makkah types who are three or four years in.

Without decent residuals, there is no real fresh market for new EV’s…. It’s not just a finance house problem.

I'm my case it's Nissan that have taken the hit not the lease company. If every Nissan dealer in the country has pre reg Leafs with a RRP of £32k and selling for £16k the lease companies are going to be getting for much less than that so they probably don't care that they are worth buttons in 2 years once they have my money

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'm my case it's Nissan that have taken the hit not the lease company. If every Nissan dealer in the country has pre reg Leafs with a RRP of £32k and selling for £16k the lease companies are going to be getting for much less than that so they probably don't care that they are worth buttons in 2 years once they have my money

Agreed. Unique situation: end of model clear out, with the Leaf’s whole fast charging issue. Not much impact on new values when they get to end of lease.

Cracking cars that are real competition to new ICE

 

[Mactech]

Whilst I understand the tax incentives for Tesla to get a good grip on the Norwegian market.
From a technical perspective it is also one of the coldest European counties. Strange when we know about range!
How it dips as soon as we see anyone in a coat, but the the hardy folk of Norway obviously don't have a problem with that, they just embrace and adapt to what EV's do and don't do well.
Probably much more to do with the golden rule.....

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Probably much more to do with the golden rule.....

"Organise your life to avoid paying taxes on income and wealth?"

Or "charge when you can (or when you park), not when you have to?"

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'm my case it's Nissan that have taken the hit not the lease company. If every Nissan dealer in the country has pre reg Leafs with a RRP of £32k and selling for £16k the lease companies are going to be getting for much less than that so they probably don't care that they are worth buttons in 2 years once they have my money

Sheesh: Leaves falling everywhere ! Two year old, ultra low mileage ones for £11k !
Ford Focus: eat your heart out.
What price are these things going to be in November ?

 

[ChrisPDuck]

"Organise your life to avoid paying taxes on income and wealth?"

Or "charge when you can (or when you park), not when you have to?"

Measure twice, cut once?

 

[markjay]

Whilst I understand the tax incentives for Tesla to get a good grip on the Norwegian market.
From a technical perspective it is also one of the coldest European counties. Strange when we know about range!
How it dips as soon as we see anyone in a coat, but the the hardy folk of Norway obviously don't have a problem with that, they just embrace and adapt to what EV's do and don't do well.
Probably much more to do with the golden rule.....

Not only is Norway a much colder country than the UK, but it's also around one-and-a-half times the size of the UK.

The lesson is that if the financial insensitive are sufficiently considerable, all of the 'practical' issues are suddenly resolvable....... or at least they were for 82% of Norwegian drivers.

Here in the UK, the more significant financial benefits are applicable only to business users, and consequently I expect that vast majority of business leases taken out on private cars in the past 4 years were for EVs (with the obvious exception of some old-school petrolheads leasing high performance petrol cars).

The EV grant and other minor exemptions (VED) were clearly insufficient to entice private car buyers, and coupled with high charging costs, the EV just wasn't an attractive enough proposition.

My guess is that if the government further subsidised EVs (and the cost of electricity from public chargers), we'd see much more EVs on our roads (and far less posts about temperature and range...)

 

[Dryce]

Not only is Norway a much colder country than the UK, but it's also around one-and-a-half times the size of the UK.

It's not that cold where most of the the people are. Maritime climate dominated by the westerlies from the Atlantic over most of it.

It has huge space for the population - but a bit like Scotland the population is clumped with large voids in between that most people don't need to traverse very often.

 

[Connoisseur]

EV Fact. This to me looks the best ev I’ve seen

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

EV Fact. This to me looks the best ev I’ve seenView attachment 159815:

Looks like a stupid waste of a valuable and rare 300SL body to me.

Why would anyone put a third of a tonne of EV battery into a 1950's coupe?

Which reminds me of the commercial failure that was the result of this nearly £200k SL conversion back in 2020, that sold for £45k.

Iconic Auctioneers - 1975 Mercedes-Benz 350 SL 'SportLine Zero' Electric Converti-Sold

The story begins when SCC 107K arrived at SLSHOP ready for retirement, minus its engine and with a faulty gearbox, and seemed an ideal candidate to be rebuilt as an electrically-powered classic Merced...

www.iconicauctioneers.com

 

[markjay]

It has huge space for the population - but a bit like Scotland the population is clumped with large voids in between that most people don't need to traverse very often.

It's a very elongated country... my impression is that it's just too big for car journeys anyway, and so most people fly or take trains and ferries. Also the mountainous terrain means that building fast motorways between the major cities isn't going to be easy or cheap. They have lots and lots of bridges though, and some very long underwater tunnels for cars (and they are now planning to build the world's first tunnel for cruise ships).

 

[SmartAmg]

Looks like a stupid waste of a valuable and rare 300SL body to me.

Why would anyone put a third of a tonne of EV battery into a 1950's coupe?

Which reminds me of the commercial failure that was the result of this nearly £200k SL conversion back in 2020, that sold for £45k.

View attachment 159820

Iconic Auctioneers - 1975 Mercedes-Benz 350 SL 'SportLine Zero' Electric Converti-Sold

The story begins when SCC 107K arrived at SLSHOP ready for retirement, minus its engine and with a faulty gearbox, and seemed an ideal candidate to be rebuilt as an electrically-powered classic Merced...

www.iconicauctioneers.com

Looks like someone got a bargain.

 

[Connoisseur]

Looks like a stupid waste of a valuable and rare 300SL body to me.

Why would anyone put a third of a tonne of EV battery into a 1950's coupe?

Which reminds me of the commercial failure that was the result of this nearly £200k SL conversion back in 2020, that sold for £45k.

View attachment 159820

Iconic Auctioneers - 1975 Mercedes-Benz 350 SL 'SportLine Zero' Electric Converti-Sold

The story begins when SCC 107K arrived at SLSHOP ready for retirement, minus its engine and with a faulty gearbox, and seemed an ideal candidate to be rebuilt as an electrically-powered classic Merced...

www.iconicauctioneers.com

Cannot believe your response! Oh, ok I can