The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

The two maps that I posted showed that there are chargers in Market Drayton and all the way along the M6,
which is useful for all those travelling beyond the range of their home charger.

None of which are much use for rapid charging while you shop though. Which is what was being advocated for those who can't charge at home.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

By showing that rapid charging at a supermarket while you shop isn't always possible, as was suggested.

You know that I didn't suggest that it’s always possible to charge at a supermarket because, well, that would be as daft as saying that you can never charge at a supermarket. Which I don’t believe you have, in case you think I’m suggesting you did.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

None of which are much use for rapid charging while you shop though. Which is what was being advocated for those who can't charge at home.

An EV doesn’t have to be rapid charged whilst you shop, you just connect whilst you do other things and the car’s not moving unless you’re travelling further than the car’s range would allow. Ultra rapid charging only makes sense in that scenario.

 

[markjay]

In 45+ years of driving I don't think I've ever bought fuel at a UK motorway service station. I have (occasionally) used the M6 toll though, and I've scaled Snowdon

Interesting. Is this because you hardly do any motorway driving... or because you prefer to exit the motorway and refuel at a cheaper petrol stations away from motorway services? Or, possibly you rarely embark on journeys long enough to require refuelling along the route?

 

[markjay]

An EV doesn’t have to be rapid charged whilst you shop, you just connect whilst you do other things and the car’s not moving unless you’re travelling further than the car’s range would allow. Ultra rapid charging only makes sense in that scenario.

A charger at a shopping mall / retail park need not be more than 50kW or so. In motorway services, I would expect it to be at least 150kW.

In France, on the Autoroutes, they had several fast chargers (typically 4 to 8 chargers, 150kW to 350kW depending on the brand), and one or two 50kW chargers alongside - the electricity from the 50kW chargers was cheaper.

 

[BTB 500]

No it was me that said I don’t think EVs could work for you based upon the comprehensive information you’ve provided about Market Drayton, it’s chargers, where you do and don’t go, and your long non-stop trips to the South East and Europe.

Ah OK. Actually an EV could work for me. It would be inconvenient and it wouldn't save me much money, but it would be possible.

Saying the “West Midlands” could be interpreted as being the very heavily urbanised county of West Midlands in the centre of which is the UK’s second city and the third largest urban area, and the second most densely populated.

Whereas Market Drayton is in the West Midlands region, is much much more rural in comparison but is still just 14 miles away from a large Tesla Supercharger site, a stones throw from the nearest motorway junction.

Agreed we're not in West Midlands county, but we're only 19 miles from it. So not that far out in the sticks.

The Trentham supercharger site is 17 miles from us (we don't live in Market Drayton - it's just the nearest town), and unfortunately in the opposite direction to most of our trips (we travel M54/M6 towards Birmingham far more often than M6 northbound).

 

[Bellow]

A charger at a shopping mall / retail park need not be more than 50kW or so. In motorway services, I would expect it to be at least 150kW.

My local (2 miles away) does, it transpires, have a charging facility - a 7kW facility. Twenty minutes at 7kW. That might just get me home....

 

[BTB 500]

Interesting. Is this because you hardly do any motorway driving... or because you prefer to exit the motorway and refuel at a cheaper petrol stations away from motorway services? Or, possibly you rarely embark on journeys long enough to require refuelling along the route?

I do a lot of motorway driving, but I've always passed enough filling stations on the way to a motorway that I can top up beforehand if necessary. The C300 (petrol) estate I have now is a great cruiser and will comfortably do over 600 miles on a tank, so often no need to fill up before or straight after. Typically 44-46 mpg on a run ... only 40.3 on a recent trip to a funeral and back (rush hour in both directions and bad weather), but 345 miles done with 277 remaining:

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Ah OK. Actually an EV could work for me. It would be inconvenient and it wouldn't save me much money, but it would be possible.

Well if it’s possible now, then in time it might even become convenient and potentially save you even more money in future. Especially with solar, off peak charging, and the inevitable reduction in public charger prices.

It’s possible for me to drive an EV too, albeit the inconvenience I expected hasn’t proved to actually be real or significant, and it would definitely save me a lot of money, but I choose not to, other than for my inquisitive streak.

For those EV drivers lucky enough to have the option to leave home or work with a full charge (or their preset cutoff) then that convenience can sometimes offset in full or in part the other inconveniences of EV ownership.

If I didn’t do it for fun and to understand what it’s like not to be able to charge at home, then our EV would never be charged anywhere other than at home which is the way it works for pretty much everyone who can.

That said it doesn’t mean that they have to be charged every day or night, as most EV drivers don’t travel further than their car’s range in one day. I suspect that when driving an ICE they still don’t travel further than their EV range in a day.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Yet here's a 2017 Model S on 109k miles that's had a new battery:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

And a 2019 Model 3 on 24k miles that's had a new battery:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

And a 2019 Model X on 57k miles that's had a new battery:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Chuckle.

Well done, so, just as ICE vehicles need new engines and gearboxes, or just get written off early as an uneconomic repair,

a small number of EV's either get new batteries, under warranty, or get replacement / part recycled refurbished batteries outside of warranty.

Well, no surprise there.

Shall we look for cars which have had body repairs now?

 

[BTB 500]

An EV doesn’t have to be rapid charged whilst you shop, you just connect whilst you do other things and the car’s not moving unless you’re travelling further than the car’s range would allow. Ultra rapid charging only makes sense in that scenario.

Sure, but that's provided there is a charger where you have parked. I read your original post (below) as suggesting that it was always possible to choose a supermarket with a charger (which I don't agree with), but if I misunderstood then apologies.

There won’t be an EV charger at every destination, but if you need to go to a supermarket and your usual one doesn’t have a charger, then someone who can’t charge at home or work can go to a supermarket which does have a charger.

Some might say that they are not prepared to sacrifice the choice of supermarkets. That’s fine, those people should just continue to drive an EV, but I they ought not say that it’s not possible because it is - they just choose not to.

 

[Connoisseur]

Latest ev sales figures make interesting reading.

Electric car sales grow in UK despite decline in overall vehicle market

Carmakers sell 29,800 electric cars in October as diesel models drop by a fifth and petrol cars by 14%

www.theguardian.com

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I do a lot of motorway driving, but I've always passed enough filling stations on the way to a motorway that I can top up beforehand if necessary. The C300 (petrol) estate I have now is a great cruiser and will comfortably do over 600 miles on a tank, so often no need to fill up before or straight after. Typically 44-46 mpg on a run ... only 40.3 on a recent trip to a funeral and back (rush hour in both directions and bad weather), but 345 miles done with 277 remaining:

View attachment 163632

None of which are much use for rapid charging while you shop though. Which is what was being advocated for those who can't charge at home.

Do not, under any circumstances, replace your C300 with a modern EV.

EV's rubbish, badly built, cheap and irritating to drive, even if they can genuinely do 3-400 mile range on home electricity at a cost of about £8 - 10 instead of £70

The next generation will be better.

On your 345 mile round trip, if you were in a Long Range Tesla 3, you would have had to stop once for 12-15 minutes at a high speed charger to add 120 miles to the "nominal" 348 mile range that was in the car when you left home, to give you 470 total range, which would comfortably get you back home, where you could just plug your car into your three pin socket and fill 'er up.

Range, exploding batteries, and battery failure are not the issue with the EV transition, it's quality and price relative to the best ICE equivalents.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Latest ev sales figures make interesting reading.

Electric car sales grow in UK despite decline in overall vehicle market

Carmakers sell 29,800 electric cars in October as diesel models drop by a fifth and petrol cars by 14%

www.theguardian.com

We've been this way before. Over-analysing monthly numbers is a path to madness.

The car manufacturers have been forced to hit that 22% annual number, so they will do it. A £15k fine per unit will guarantee that. As does the collapse in China's demand for new vehicles.

Margins are being hit, after three years of record profitability, poor wee things.

But let's pause for a moment and remember the poor departed small hatchback ICE: killed prematurely by Mr Farage and all the other MEP's with their over-ambitious plans for the Green transition.

 

[BTB 500]

Well done, so, just as ICE vehicles need new engines and gearboxes, or just get written off early as an uneconomic repair,

a small number of EV's either get new batteries, under warranty, or get replacement / part recycled refurbished batteries outside of warranty.

You posted an example of a Tesla with 260K miles on the clock to (presumably) suggest that buying a car with a short warranty period remaining shouldn't be a concern?

I posted a few examples of Teslas that had suffered major failures at much lower mileages to suggest that it was quite possible to have a battery die at much lower mileages (which would be a serious issue without warranty cover).

AFAIK Tesla don't publish statistical data on the failure rates of their batteries so we'll never know the true picture.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That said it doesn’t mean that they have to be charged every day or night, as most EV drivers don’t travel further than their car’s range in one day. I suspect that when driving an ICE they still don’t travel further than their EV range in a day.

Pause while we all remind ourselves of our annual mileages

Average mileage driven in the UK: 8,000 miles / year

An average that includes all those commercial folk commuting hundreds of miles a week, or driving hundreds of miles a week to visit clients.

 

[BIGDOG]

By showing that rapid charging at a supermarket while you shop isn't always possible, as was suggested.

You wouldn’t need to though, you can charge at home so charging while doing the weekly shop is not needed.

I think that you are just looking for reasons that EV cannot work, despite never planning to buy one.

Weird.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You posted an example of a Tesla with 260K miles on the clock to (presumably) suggest that buying a car with a short warranty period remaining shouldn't be a concern?

Nope, my point was that there are plenty of Tesla around that have already done high mileages without repair, which doesn't point towards the average Tesla collapsing in a small pile of dust after eight years and perhaps 80,000 miles.

We get that you're scared of the unknown. The point is that the evidence doesn't exist to show that it's likely.

(Unlike R129's which are being scrapped at an embarrassing rate because of age and uneconomic maintenance / repair)

 

[BTB 500]

Do not, under any circumstances, replace your C300 with a modern EV.

EV's rubbish, badly built, cheap and irritating to drive, even if they can genuinely do 3-400 mile range on home electricity at a cost of about £8 - 10 instead of £70

The next generation will be better.

On your 345 mile round trip, if you were in a Long Range Tesla 3, you would have had to stop once for 12-15 minutes at a high speed charger to add 120 miles to the "nominal" 348 mile range that was in the car when you left home, to give you 470 total range, which would comfortably get you back home, where you could just plug your car into your three pin socket and fill 'er up.

Range, exploding batteries, and battery failure are not the issue with the EV transition, it's quality and price relative to the best ICE equivalents.

A Tesla Model 3 isn't equivalent to a C Class estate though. That's one issue with EVs - if you ever need to carry anything remotely bulky your only choice is a huge SUV, which is nowhere near as efficient as something like a Model 3.

 

[BTB 500]

We get that you're scared of the unknown. The point is that the evidence doesn't exist to show that it's likely.

Equally there's no actual evidence to show that it's unlikely. The fact that *some* cars do high mileages without apparently having too many problems doesn't really cut it. There's a whole industry in the US dealing with battery failures on out of warranty Teslas - wonder why that might be?

(Unlike R129's which are being scrapped at an embarrassing rate because of age and uneconomic maintenance / repair)

I look forward to seeing how usable a 27 year old Tesla will be.