The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

Hasn't this always been the government's policy? To have 'younger' cars on the road?

I don't think so - why would they make them MOT and VED exempt??

 

[ALFAitalia]

All depends on how you measure best! But the Jaguar V12 was still good enough in the late eighties to win Le Mans and the the World car Championship, not once but twice! Having said that, it was huge, heavy and was very difficult package in a racing car.
Perhaps it was better suited to being an aeroplane engine....

Trivia non EV fact.
During WW2, the Rolls Royce factory in Crewe was the largest producer of 12 cylinder engines.
In the first 2 decades of this century it was still the biggest producer of 12 cylinder engines, at this time in Bentley automotive guise...

I assume most of those were Merlin derivatives going into warbirds and getting shot at!!

 

[Mactech]

I assume most of those were Merlin derivatives going into warbirds and getting shot at!!
View attachment 164704

They certainly were! Hence my inference that the 12 cylinder engines were better suited to aviation. It’s a reasonable assumption that we would not be here without the Merlin engine

 

[BTB 500]

They certainly were! Hence my inference that the 12 cylinder engines were better suited to aviation.

Petrol V12s were also widely used in tanks and coastal motor boats (MTB, MGB, HSL, etc.)

 

[markjay]

I don't think so - why would they make them MOT and VED exempt??

You already know the answer to this question... the government is obviously not encouraging people to run 40 years old cars

In fact, cars aren't automatically exempt when they become 40 years old, instead you need to apply for 'historic' vehicle classification and accept the restrictions that come with that.

This is how the authorities can ensure that these are real collectors' cars, as opposed to cars bought by penny-pinching motorists looking for a jalopy that they can run on the cheap.

And, yes, there will always be some tight geezer who will happily buy a surviving 1982 Austin Metro to use as his daily runner, have it classified as 'historic' vehicle, and keep boasting at the pub how much money he's saving every day....

But you knew all that.

 

[markjay]

I would suggest that a 20 to 30 year old car is even less fragile (and easier to fix) than a brand new one....let alone a 40 year old proper classic!!!

That's partially because technology progressed at a slower pace at the time, and cars were kept running for longer.

Cars were designed so that their service life span corresponds with their technological life span.

And it isn't a coincidence that the pace picked up. Developing and making progress with the production of mechanical stuff is a slow and expensive process. Changes in engine design, for example, were made once in a decade, if that: cam in crank, cam in head, overhead camshaft, dual overhead camshafts - this took a hundred years.... and there wasn't a single single major breakthrough in car engine design since the early days of the previous century (bar the ****el, which didn't catch on). Yes, they made V engines and boxer engines, and even a W engine, but that's essentially just moving things around rather than a breakthrough.

Once you introduce electronics, it's a different ball game. And cars now rely heavily on electronics. Once we get rid off the redundant mechanical bits - engine and transmission - there's no reason why car tech won't develop as quick as computers or mobile phones.

 

[Mactech]

Petrol V12s were also widely used in tanks and coastal motor boats (MTB, MGB, HSL, etc.)

Yes, my father commanded an MTB out in India during WW2.

 

[BTB 500]

Yes, my father commanded an MTB out in India during WW2.

My grandfather was in RAF air sea rescue, up in Scotland

 

[190]

In fact, cars aren't automatically exempt when they become 40 years old, instead you need to apply for 'historic' vehicle classification and accept the restrictions that come with that.

Good luck with trying to get a car that is just 40 years old classified as historic, in practice they have to be 41 years old at least. The reason is typical government bureaucracy :

"You can apply to stop paying for vehicle tax from 1 April 2024 if your vehicle was built before 1 January 1984 "

So using the current year example if your vehicle was built on the 2nd Jan 84 you will have to wait until 1st April 2025 to register it as historic when it will be 41 year and 3 months old - You couldn't make it up.

And yes my bike was registered on the 4th Jan so it was 41 years and 3 months old before I could get it registered as historic. It was actually manufactured the previous Oct and it is the manufacture date that counts but the DVLA wont believe you even when you provide evidence using the serial number. They would much rather believe the impossibility that it was manufactured, then transported from Germany to the UK importer, distributed to the dealer then sold and registered all within 3 days, one of which was a bank holiday.

Bizarrely vehicles become MOT exempt on their exact 40th birthday. A bit of common sense simplicity that must have accidentally slipped through the bureaucracy net.

 

[BTB 500]

Hasn't this always been the government's policy? To have 'younger' cars on the road?

If there was such a policy they would of course need to reverse it as soon as the majority of drivers were in zero emission vehicles. For environmental reasons you'd want these cars to stay in use for as long as possible ... tiny improvements in power consumption would nowhere near offset the impact of building and distributing new cars & battery packs more frequently.

Once you introduce electronics, it's a different ball game. And cars now rely heavily on electronics. Once we get rid off the redundant mechanical bits - engine and transmission - there's no reason why car tech won't develop as quick as computers or mobile phones.

... and as above that will be an issue if you want people to run their zero emission cars for as long as possible to minimise the environmental impact of replacing them.

 

[Dryce]

- there's no reason why car tech won't develop as quick as computers or mobile phones.

Be careful what you wish for.

Computers haven't developed that much in the last couple of decades.

Mobile phones are supposedly better with each generation - but the changes as opposed to the hype are about small increments.

And I reckon that call reliability on voice calls has dropped noticeably in the last few years - so the phones might have slightly better cameras and a better app experience but when it comes to the *phone* bit they've taken a step back.

If cars go the same way we will have vehicles that slow down and become less responsive after a few years - that glitch and that take longer to start -and where there is a lag in steering input and response - and occasional hangups.

 

[markjay]

Public Charge Point Regulations 2023 guidance

www.gov.uk

"Rapid charge points must be 99% reliable, measured as an average across each charge point operator’s rapid network over the calendar year.

Information on reliability compliance must be published on the charge point operator’s website. Charge point operators must also submit an annual reliability report to the Secretary of State and the enforcement authority."

As of November 2024.

 

[ChipChop]

Good luck with trying to get a car that is just 40 years old classified as historic, in practice they have to be 41 years old at least. The reason is typical government bureaucracy :

"You can apply to stop paying for vehicle tax from 1 April 2024 if your vehicle was built before 1 January 1984 "

So using the current year example if your vehicle was built on the 2nd Jan 84 you will have to wait until 1st April 2025 to register it as historic when it will be 41 year and 3 months old - You couldn't make it up.

And yes my bike was registered on the 4th Jan so it was 41 years and 3 months old before I could get it registered as historic. It was actually manufactured the previous Oct and it is the manufacture date that counts but the DVLA wont believe you even when you provide evidence using the serial number. They would much rather believe the impossibility that it was manufactured, then transported from Germany to the UK importer, distributed to the dealer then sold and registered all within 3 days, one of which was a bank holiday.

Bizarrely vehicles become MOT exempt on their exact 40th birthday. A bit of common sense simplicity that must have accidentally slipped through the bureaucracy net.

The automatic 40 year MOT exemption and the £nil historic taxation class are two completely seperate and independent things that have no bearing on each other. MOT exemptions are managed by the DVSA and the historic taxation class by the DVLA.

 

[Pontoneer]

It will become less and less possible, I agree, but what will prompt that is that people won’t want to pay for the repairs, scrapping or breaking the car, reducing the demand for repairs.

Let’s hope that clever people who can fix things - either electronics or mechanics - continue. There’s little more satisfying than watching a specialist do their their thing, making the difficult look easy.

Had a conversation tonight with a pal whose S203 was rear ended by a taxi a couple of months back .

Insurers have dragged their feet but finally told him to get quotes for repairs - car needs a new tailgate and back bumper , although it doesn’t look so bad . They now stipulate only genuine new parts can be used , not secondhand or aftermarket. M-B told him a new , bare tailgate would be £700 odds and a bumper about the same , not helped that it’s an AMG one . Tailgate no longer available. Really only needs a bumper skin but they’d only quote for the full bumper , again insurance don’t want the bumper repaired . He knows they’re pushing to write off . I asked what about a contract repair or cash settlement in lieu of repairs ( he views it as an old car and happy to not repair it , at least officially ) but he reckons they’d want the car to write it off and he’d lose it ( it’s a 320 and he still likes it ) . Car is obsidian black so plenty around and he’d be quite happy to watch for a black tailgate and swap it himself , ditto the bumper , even a standard one .

So , due to bureaucracy , a car that could be easily and cheaply repaired probably won’t be , at least not via the insurers . To crown it all , it was his 17 YO daughter who was driving as her own car was in the garage , and he made her take out one of those one day policies as his insurance didn’t cover her , think it is going direct through the taxi firm’s insurance, again I’d have thought they might have just offered a few hundred cash settlement rather than getting insurance involved just to make it go away , since their driver admitted responsibility and there were witnesses .

A lot of fuss and bother for something that ought to be simple .

 

[Pontoneer]

Hasn't this always been the government's policy? To have 'younger' cars on the road? Newer cars are generally less polluting, and are safer. I am not advocating banning older cars from our roads altogether, obviously, but I think that the successive governments' policy of getting older polluting and less safe cars off the road via natural attrition, is sensible. We do want the average age of cars in the UK to go down, not go up.

That fails to take account of all the pollution caused by making new vehicles , the resources used up in so doing , and the pollution caused by storing and processing the non recyclable parts of end of life vehicles which were probably still viable .

I’m also sure that isn’t borne out of concern for peoples wellbeing as much as to prop up the car manufacturing industry and supply chains , generating profit and tax revenue.

 

[Pontoneer]

Yes, but those generally cost a lot less than cars!

According to the SMMT the average age of cars on the road in the UK has been steadily increasing - up by more than a year (to 9 years) between 2019 and 2023. As at the end of 2023 almost a third of cars on the road were more than 12 years old.

Depends which cars you’re comparing with .

 

[Pontoneer]

Apparently the "dirtiest" 10% of cars create 50% of the pollution.......Like to know how they measured that though!!!

I’d imagine much of that came from old Diesel taxis , and wonder if clapped out Diesel buses , vans and trucks were counted ?

 

[Pontoneer]

I think we need to recognise that for many all the virtues of newer cars are second on the list after affordable maintenance. There is a significant pool of cars that are self-maintained, maintained by friends/family members, or at worst, affordable garages. Newer cars are not amenable to that and it will be a long time before EVs - if ever - qualify. Dealer rates at £150-200/hr for those on minimum wage just aren't an option - but that's where EVs are taking us. The average Joe if pushed can remove an EGR pipe and clean it out. Replacing say, an EV cell - not a chance. Call it progress if you must but it further corporationises our world when the more resourceful could have succeeded off the back of their own endeavour. I call that a loss.

Also why the mix of vehicles seen in 3rd world countries , where work is often carried out by bush mechanics probably won’t embrace newer cars anytime soon .

 

[Pontoneer]

All depends on how you measure best! But the Jaguar V12 was still good enough in the late eighties to win Le Mans and the the World car Championship, not once but twice! Having said that, it was huge, heavy and was very difficult package in a racing car.
Perhaps it was better suited to being an aeroplane engine....

Trivia non EV fact.
During WW2, the Rolls Royce factory in Crewe was the largest producer of 12 cylinder engines.
In the first 2 decades of this century it was still the biggest producer of 12 cylinder engines, at this time in Bentley automotive guise...

Didn’t Daimler-Benz produce more aero engines during the war ? After all the Luftwaffe had something like 3 times the number of aircraft compared to the RAF , and their various engines were also used in E-boats , U-boats , tanks etc . I know BMW also produced engines ( hence the name ) as did numerous others , but I think the DB-6xx series probably dominated?

 

[Pontoneer]

Public Charge Point Regulations 2023 guidance

www.gov.uk

"Rapid charge points must be 99% reliable, measured as an average across each charge point operator’s rapid network over the calendar year.

Information on reliability compliance must be published on the charge point operator’s website. Charge point operators must also submit an annual reliability report to the Secretary of State and the enforcement authority."

As of November 2024.

I guess then that we must have most of the bad ones hereabouts then !