The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

People throwing away AA or AAA cells would have to throw away a helluva lot to equate to a vehicle battery , besides these consumer units tend to be NiCad or NiMh cells rather than Li-Ion cells .

It would indeed take a hulluva lot of AA and AAA batteries to add up to the equivalent of an EV battery, however people use a helluva lot of batteries. There are batteries in the majority of electrical items, most of which are not recycled.

You may tend to have NiCad and NiMh battery powered devices, however both are relatively uncommon in electrical devices today and in the last few years. Regardless of battery chemistry they all consume limited natural resources.

Cobalt being limited is talked about because of the prevalence of lithium batteries, and it being the current battery technology for the age in which we can all - including the third world - afford and be wasteful with electrical devices.

Battery technology will move and will require another limited natural resource.

 

[Pontoneer]

It would indeed take a hulluva lot of AA and AAA batteries to add up to the equivalent of an EV battery, however people use a helluva lot of batteries. There are batteries in the majority of electrical items, most of which are not recycled.

You may tend to have NiCad and NiMh battery powered devices, however both are relatively uncommon in electrical devices today and in the last few years. Regardless of battery chemistry they all consume limited natural resources.

Cobalt being limited is talked about because of the prevalence of lithium batteries, and it being the current battery technology for the age in which we can all - including the third world - afford and be wasteful with electrical devices.

Battery technology will move and will require another limited natural resource.

Certainly the rechargeable batteries supplied in proprietary sizes AAA , AA , C , D etc are predominantly NiCad or NiMh , depending on application . I know that the tagged cell AA batteries in my Braun Flex Integral electric shaver are Nicad because that chemistry better suits the deep discharge cycle employed in such devices ; the non tagged replaceable rechargeable cells bought from supermarkets under brands such as Duracell or Energiser tend to be almost exclusively NiMh batteries , and I use these for camera flashes , wireless relays , radio microphones , torches and so many other devices .I now almost exclusively use Duracell 'stay charged' 3 year or 5 year NiMh AA batteries for such devices , and none needing to be discarded over the last decade ; my old RS Components NiCad batteries having given up years ago .

Yes , many people still buy single use batteries which are not at all economic and do no favours by this ; single use batteries are also no longer cheap .

Other devices such as digital cameras , camcorders ( domestic or broadcast ) and power tools nowadays almost exclusively use Li-Ion technology , but they don't come in standard sizes ( beyond broadcast kit tending to use V-Mount , PagLok or Anton Bauer mounts ) ; older video kit tended to use NP-1 batteries which were either NiCad or even lead acid types , but those devices are now circa 50 years old and obsolete . Li-Ion batteries do tend to be very durable if cared for with any diligence ; I have some which must now be close to 30 years old and still hold full capacity .

 

[markjay]

...where the front drums were inboard to reduce unsprung mass ; much as Alfa Romeo did with their inboard front discs on the Alfasuds of the 1970s...

The Alfasud had inboard discs at the front, while the Alfetta had inboard discs at the rear - the discs on the Alfetta were located on either side of the diff, which was integrated into the transmission box, at the rear of the car:

This meant the car had amazing weight distribution (for a front-engined saloon), but it also meant a somewhat imprecise gear shift lever, problematic hydraulicly-operated clutch system, and a drive shaft rotating at the speed of the engine and undoing the rubber couplings....

 

[Bellow]

deleted.

 

[Pontoneer]

The Alfasud had inboard discs at the front, while the Alfetta had inboard discs at the rear - the discs on the Alfetta were located on either side of the diff, which was integrated into the transmission box, at the rear of the car:

This meant the car had amazing weight distribution (for a front-engined saloon), but it also meant a somewhat imprecise gear shift lever, problematic hydraulicly-operated clutch system, and a drive shaft rotating at the speed of the engine and undoing the rubber couplings....

I remember them well , along with the Suds and both the earlier and later GTV 2000 coupes . I always liked Alfas .

I also wondered if those Alfettas of the 1970s influenced the design of the Porsche 924 with its transaxle layout and near perfect weight distribution .

Jaguar also famously used inboard rear discs , at least in the E-Type , but I doubt those strangely dressed young people in their new adverts know anything of their proud engineering heritage . I can even remember Rudi Uhelenhsut saying in the seventies that the Jaguar V-12 was the best engine in production at the time : high praise indeed , at least so it was reported by Setright .

 

[BTB 500]

There’s always a way to do things, if the demand is there and the economics stack up someone will develop a solution.

OK, but saying something is possible if the economics stack up isn't the same as saying it's always possible. That's why I disagreed with your original comment:

As for keeping things running - anything can be repaired or replaced if people want to - trigger’s broom anyone?

Lots of people choose to run older cars now - this will become less and less viable in future, no matter what people want.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Lots of people choose to run older cars now - this will become less and less viable in future, no matter what people want.

It will become less and less possible, I agree, but what will prompt that is that people won’t want to pay for the repairs, scrapping or breaking the car, reducing the demand for repairs.

Let’s hope that clever people who can fix things - either electronics or mechanics - continue. There’s little more satisfying than watching a specialist do their their thing, making the difficult look easy.

 

[Bellow]

I also wondered if those Alfettas of the 1970s influenced the design of the Porsche 924 with its transaxle layout and near perfect weight distribution .

Or, perhaps, that Porsche had no suitable RWD gearbox - but had an Audi transaxle available - drove the decision. It's not as if 'perfect weight distribution' was something Porsche had hitherto pursued.

Jaguar also famously used inboard rear discs , at least in the E-Type

As did VW...

, but I doubt those strangely dressed young people in their new adverts know anything of their proud engineering heritage . I can even remember Rudi Uhelenhsut saying in the seventies that the Jaguar V-12 was the best engine in production at the time : high praise indeed , at least so it was reported by Setright .

The only reliable large capacity V engine ever produced in the UK (bar Rolls-Royce's V8)?

 

[markjay]

..Lots of people choose to run older cars now - this will become less and less viable in future, no matter what people want.

Agreed, but isn't it the case with most things today? TVs, phones, computers... boilers, washing machines, fridges.... etc etc.

 

[BTB 500]

A colleague at work had a Model X, and I experienced first hand the phantom braking as a passenger. My IONIQ 5 does brake on occasion in circumstances where I judged braking to be unnecessary, but It's not the same as I've experienced in the Tesla, because with the IONIQ 5 I could see what triggered it, usually a cyclist or a pedestrian that the car was 'overprotective' about, while with the Tesla it's anyone's guess what complex trajectory the car worked out and who was it trying to protect. But, then, Tesla's driver aids tech is far more sophisticated and complex than that of other cars, to begin with.

The fundamental issue with Tesla seems to be the total reliance on camera technology. A RADAR system could never think a bridge above the road was a solid obstruction in front of the car, or (as apparently happened in the US) fail to recognise a flatbed trailer blocking the road as being a hazard.

Then, my colleague got a Model 3, and I am still perplexed at how you can operate a vehicle with a computer screen replacing both the instrument cluster and the dashboard switch panel. It wouldn't work for me... But given the sheer number of Model 3 that I see on the roads, I guess (some) people do like it.

From that review it seems the latest Model 3 is the first to dispense with physical 'gear' selection and do that on the touchscreen as well. Of course no matter how well it works in practice the screen becomes a single point of failure for the whole car - interesting that they do provide emergency gear selection buttons on the overhead console so you'd be able to move it at least.

 

[BTB 500]

Agreed, but isn't it the case with most things today? TVs, phones, computers... boilers, washing machines, fridges.... etc etc.

Yes, but those generally cost a lot less than cars!

According to the SMMT the average age of cars on the road in the UK has been steadily increasing - up by more than a year (to 9 years) between 2019 and 2023. As at the end of 2023 almost a third of cars on the road were more than 12 years old.

 

[ALFAitalia]

.....saying in the seventies that the Jaguar V-12 was the best engine in production at the time.

I think that just says how bad the rest must have been!!
Head gaskets, overheating, fuel vaporisation, leaking carbs, constant engine electrical issues etc etc.

 

[markjay]

Yes, but those generally cost a lot less than cars!

According to the SMMT the average age of cars on the road in the UK has been steadily increasing - up by more than a year (to 9 years) between 2019 and 2023. As at the end of 2023 almost a third of cars on the road were more than 12 years old.

Hasn't this always been the government's policy? To have 'younger' cars on the road? Newer cars are generally less polluting, and are safer. I am not advocating banning older cars from our roads altogether, obviously, but I think that the successive governments' policy of getting older polluting and less safe cars off the road via natural attrition, is sensible. We do want the average age of cars in the UK to go down, not go up.

 

[Bellow]

I think that just says how bad the rest must have been!!
Head gaskets, overheating, fuel vaporisation, leaking carbs, constant engine electrical issues etc etc.

Well off topic here... but I'm intrigued. The V12 problems you mention - were they with both cylinder head types and, only on the E-Type where a lot of engine was crammed into a space not originally envisaged for it or the saloons too? The core of the engine - the heavy mechanical bits - reliable - no?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Apparently the "dirtiest" 10% of cars create 50% of the pollution.......Like to know how they measured that though!!!

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Yes, but those generally cost a lot less than cars!

According to the SMMT the average age of cars on the road in the UK has been steadily increasing - up by more than a year (to 9 years) between 2019 and 2023. As at the end of 2023 almost a third of cars on the road were more than 12 years old.

COVID + extreme volatility in used car prices + inflation will generally do that. I dread to think how many people are in negative equity because they bought their car when the used car market was on fire, and have since suffered huge drops in value.

Not many of those people will be replacing their current car any time soon - most simply won’t be able to afford to as they can’t afford to buy themselves out of the current agreement - and others have had their fingers burned and will be more prudent for the foreseeable future.

The other factor is that 20 or 30 years ago a 20-30 year old classic was a rarity due to corrosion and reliability. I suspect today a 20-30 year old classic is much less fragile, and as a result I wouldn’t be surprised if there are many more taxed.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I would suggest that a 20 to 30 year old car is even less fragile (and easier to fix) than a brand new one....let alone a 40 year old proper classic!!!

 

[Bellow]

Hasn't this always been the government's policy? To have 'younger' cars on the road? Newer cars are generally less polluting, and are safer. I am not advocating banning older cars from our roads altogether, obviously, but I think that the successive governments' policy of getting older polluting and less safe cars off the road via natural attrition, is sensible. We do want the average age of cars in the UK to go down, not go up.

I think we need to recognise that for many all the virtues of newer cars are second on the list after affordable maintenance. There is a significant pool of cars that are self-maintained, maintained by friends/family members, or at worst, affordable garages. Newer cars are not amenable to that and it will be a long time before EVs - if ever - qualify. Dealer rates at £150-200/hr for those on minimum wage just aren't an option - but that's where EVs are taking us. The average Joe if pushed can remove an EGR pipe and clean it out. Replacing say, an EV cell - not a chance. Call it progress if you must but it further corporationises our world when the more resourceful could have succeeded off the back of their own endeavour. I call that a loss.

 

[BTB 500]

It will become less and less possible, I agree, but what will prompt that is that people won’t want to pay for the repairs, scrapping or breaking the car, reducing the demand for repairs.

Let’s hope that clever people who can fix things - either electronics or mechanics - continue. There’s little more satisfying than watching a specialist do their their thing, making the difficult look easy.

Agreed, but AFAIK it's not generally possible to fix a failed touchscreen (for example) ... you need a replacement. Older electronics with PCBs and soldered connections are a different matter - hence the various cluster / module repair companies. I managed to fix the aircon in my wife's old Audi myself by finding a vibration crack in a solder joint on the main PCB:



I re-soldered that (and the others to the right that looked a bit dodgy) and all was fine

 

[Mactech]

Jaguar also famously used inboard rear discs , at least in the E-Type , but I doubt those strangely dressed young people in their new adverts know anything of their proud engineering heritage . I can even remember Rudi Uhelenhsut saying in the seventies that the Jaguar V-12 was the best engine in production at the time : high praise indeed , at least so it was reported by Setright .

All depends on how you measure best! But the Jaguar V12 was still good enough in the late eighties to win Le Mans and the the World car Championship, not once but twice! Having said that, it was huge, heavy and was very difficult package in a racing car.
Perhaps it was better suited to being an aeroplane engine....

Trivia non EV fact.
During WW2, the Rolls Royce factory in Crewe was the largest producer of 12 cylinder engines.
In the first 2 decades of this century it was still the biggest producer of 12 cylinder engines, at this time in Bentley automotive guise...