The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

and the electricity required to refine the crude... all of which will be reduced gradually as more and more EVs replace ICE cars, and the electricity saved should be offset against the increase in electricity consumption by EV chargers. (I am not even talking about the Carbon footprint of drilling for, then refining and distributing fossil fuels...)

As mentioned unless you also stop using all lubricants, aviation and marine fuels, plastics, chemicals, etc. crude oil will still need to be extracted, transported, and refined.

 

[BTB 500]

In fact, buy two! Keeping in mind that EVs die after 8 years, and since EV technology has peaked and will not change in the next 50 years, just keep the other one in the original shrink-wrap until the current one bites the dust. Simple!

Except Li batteries deteriorate due to age even if unused, so your shrink-wrapped car will have less range when you start using it

 

[Will]

Precisely my point that you seem to have missed entirely, there is no demand for their ICE cars.
I was replying to the claim, ".they would be using that same coal powered electricity to build ICE cars if they were not building EVs.."

China will manufacture what there is a demand for. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying - but they had started already selling other ICE vehicles, and if the global trend for this was to continue we would be seeing more of them. I just see it as they didn’t get heavily involved in a declining industry where the future is in EVs.

Historically the legacy manufacturers closer to home didn’t make EVs. They’ve had to change their thinking and produce something unfamiliar to them. China have made the right decision IMO.

 

[markjay]

Cars on the other hand have been for a century or more and are major employers and if they fold the ensuing unemployment cannot not create further social and economic costs.

What about IBM, Cisco, HP, to name a few? Or Hoover, Dyson, etc? We somehow manage to survive production moving to the Far East. Why are cars any different? Even the Rover factory went to China lot-stock-and-barrel some 25 years ago. Sure, adjustments always need to be made in these circumstances, but there's nothing unique about the car industry.

 

[BIGDOG]

I keep saying that I know nothing of the situation in the UK, other than what I read online.

My only point is that the argument that says that we can't possibly have sufficient electricity production capacity to support EVs is disingenuous - because it is wrapped in illogical claims (such as that the current EV tech will not improve in the next 50 years etc).

That’s an interesting point, ICE technology has probably peaked whereas EV is developing rapidly.

 

[markjay]

That’s an interesting point, ICE technology has probably peaked whereas EV is developing rapidly.

I keep saying that I know nothing of the situation in the UK, other than what I read online.

And my point is that I have a difficulty in accepting info regarding our energy procuration capacity from people who seem ignorant of the fact that you have just mentioned.

 

[Will]

It is nothing to do with disliking EVs. The nickel and dime items you mention have never - or not for a very long time - been manufactured in the West. Cars on the other hand have been for a century or more and are major employers and if they fold the ensuing unemployment cannot not create further social and economic costs. As the West lurches dangerously to the right, fuelling that particular fire with widespread unemployment will not end well.

But you do dislike EVs though!

As can be seen by quite a few of the posters on here, who are only posting negative or critical views on them - almost conceding no positive aspect of EVs whatsoever.

Reading between the lines, you don’t like China (or Amazon), you don’t like EVs, don’t like change and seem to suggest we should all be buying domestically (or seemingly Western European) manufactured ICE vehicles ad infinitum. What on earth did we do before the invention of the motor car?

Have I got this wrong?

 

[ChipChop]

That’s an interesting point, ICE technology has probably peaked whereas EV is developing rapidly.

The opposite is true. ICE emissions technology and exhaust after treatment system development have met or surpassed each successive euro standard target. The question now is can EV manufacturers solve the 'friction' emissions targets now being set for them?

 

[BTB 500]

I can think of at least two filling stations very nearby to where I am now that have closed down and been upgraded to EV charging stations (Shell and BP)

Do they now use less electricity though? As mentioned I don't think running a pump for a couple of minutes at a time will be that significant compared to powering the entire site with all the other facilities it has, often 24x7.

 

[Will]

Do they now use less electricity though? As mentioned I don't think running a pump for a couple of minutes at a time will be that significant compared to powering the entire site with all the other facilities it has, often 24x7.

As they are charging stations, clearly not directly less! But you need to accurately measure the seemingly forgotten ‘losses’ in having thousands of petrol and diesel pumps available to dispense fuel almost as if it comes from thin air - there’s got to be a considerable amount used from planning/researching where to drill to dispensing at the garage

I’m sure you can look into this, although I suspect it will take longer to calculate than the charging losses you mention

 

[ChipChop]

Electric cars in UK last as long as petrol and diesel vehicles, study finds

International research team based findings on 300m records from MOT data to estimate failure rates of all cars

www.theguardian.com

"Electric cars in UK last as long as petrol and diesel vehicles, study finds"​

Electric cars will last as long as the original battery pack lasts outside of the warranty period. No one of sound mind is going to shell out £15- £20,000 for a battery pack on a 10 year old EV worth its weight in lithium & steel.

 

[BIGDOG]

The opposite is true. ICE emissions technology and exhaust after treatment system development have met or surpassed each successive euro standard target. The question now is can EV manufacturers solve the 'friction' emissions targets now being set for them?

They have taken 140 years so far, should be long enough to have perfected the technology.

 

[Will]

"Electric cars in UK last as long as petrol and diesel vehicles, study finds"​

Electric cars will last as long as the original battery pack lasts outside of the warranty period. No one of sound mind is going to shell out £15- £20,000 for a battery pack on a 10 year old EV worth its weight in lithium & steel.

So you’d like them to be cheaper then?

Have a look on Amazon or ask China nicely if they can manufacture them for a lower price

 

[Bellow]

True. However, you have to keep in mind that building ICE car is a tough business - lots of complex metalworks - the saving potential compared to ICE cars built in the West is relatively low. But when it comes to electric and electronic components, that's where the Chinese come into their own. They simply went straight for where they know the West can't compete. But yes, if EVs did not exist, it would have been only a matter of time before the Chinese tried to sell ICE cars in the West (just like the Koreans do, and the Japanese before them).

You keep saying ICE is 'difficult' but the numbers tell a different story. The engine accounts for 20% of build cost for a lower than EV priced ICE vehicle, the cost of a battery is 40% of a higher priced vehicle. Factor in the EV is roughly 50% more expensive than its ICE equivalent and the ICE works out at one third of the battery cost. Difficulty is reflected in cost and clearly ICE can't be as difficult as you imply.

 

[BTB 500]

As they are charging stations, clearly not directly less! But you need to accurately measure the seemingly forgotten ‘losses’ in having thousands of petrol and diesel pumps available to dispense fuel almost as if it comes from thin air - there’s got to be a considerable amount used from planning/researching where to drill to dispensing at the garage

Sure, but this was raised in the context of less kWh being required from the domestic grid as ICE forecourts closed ... thereby offsetting the extra power required for EV charging.

I just don't see this - the pumps themselves use nothing when idle (much of the time) and probably not a huge amount when running for short periods. And EV charging sites/stalls obviously consume power themselves (in addition to what they put into the vehicle).

Your example of existing forecourts converting from ICE to EV confirms the other facilities they have are still wanted/needed by EV drivers, which makes sense. And I think the power consumption for those will be far more significant than power used specifically for 'fuelling' the vehicles (whether ICE or EV).

As mentioned locating/drilling for/extracting/transporting/refining crude oil will continue for the foreseeable future anyway, even if all cars are EVs.

 

[Bellow]

But you do dislike EVs though!

As can be seen by quite a few of the posters on here, who are only posting negative or critical views on them - almost conceding no positive aspect of EVs whatsoever.

Reading between the lines, you don’t like China (or Amazon), you don’t like EVs, don’t like change and seem to suggest we should all be buying domestically (or seemingly Western European) manufactured ICE vehicles ad infinitum. What on earth did we do before the invention of the motor car?

Have I got this wrong?

Yeah, very wrong.
At no point have I said I dislike EVs. I compare their capabilities with ICE and if in certain aspects they are found wanting I say so.
Amazon - never mentioned it. Not once. Nothing against China either. I do however have a dislike for widespread unemployment and those playing fast and loose with a major source of Western employment.
Your constant allegation that I (and others) are change resistant is misplaced and you cannot arrive at that conclusion about me as you have no knowledge of me or my life. If you paid more attention you'd realise that on many issues over the years on this forum I've been ahead of the curve.
As I've said - as recently as yesterday - I see the need for decarbonisation. I merely disagree with implementation of it and the stupidity of backing only one horse and shooting all the others. Look closely and you will realise I am one of the very few here who see the need to decarbonise but don't swallow the hogwash peddled by the like of the National Grid, one of the very few who can be critical of what is happening (and not happening) without being a climate change denier. Maybe that is why your attempts to pigeon hole me are failing. Why TF am I having to justify who are what I am or am not to you? This is about EVs and their implementation and integration into networks on which they will depend. SFA to do with me as a person.
What we did before the motor car was live within walking or cycling distance of our workplace but WTF has that to do with the debate?

 

[markjay]

....the pumps themselves use nothing when idle (much of the time) and probably not a huge amount when running for short periods. And EV charging sites/stalls obviously consume power themselves (in addition to what they put into the vehicle)...

That's shooting from the hip.

Both petrol pumps and EV chargers will consume some electricity when idle, at the very least to power the LCD display etc.

And petrol stations have convenience stores built around the cashier... EV charging is 100% cashless so no shop. How much electricity does the petrol station's shop consume? What's the CO footprint of the staff coming to work everyday? Etc.

I don't have the figures, but I think your quick response wasn't a well-considered one.

 

[markjay]

Do they now use less electricity though? As mentioned I don't think running a pump for a couple of minutes at a time will be that significant compared to powering the entire site with all the other facilities it has, often 24x7.

Great, but can please demonstrate where in previous post has this amount been reduced from the EV charging electricity requirements calculation? The estimate I posted was 50kWh per pump per day. Otherwise, it's just picking and choosing facts.

 

[markjay]

They have taken 140 years so far, should be long enough to have perfected the technology.

No no no, zero emissions ICE is just around the corner, if people only listened....

 

[markjay]

"Electric cars in UK last as long as petrol and diesel vehicles, study finds"​

Electric cars will last as long as the original battery pack lasts outside of the warranty period. No one of sound mind is going to shell out £15- £20,000 for a battery pack on a 10 year old EV worth its weight in lithium & steel.

And we obviously know what a battery pack for an EV will cost in 10 years time. Again, projection based on the tech not changing. Have we learnt nothing over the past 30 years about technical advances?