The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

Precisely illustrating my point

What’s the relevance of the What Car? survey for reliability in relation to the discussion of residual values of these EVs?

Taycan values appear to have better residuals than the e-Golf - despite being at opposite ends of the survey?

And likewise they seem to have better residuals than a petrol-engined Panamera turbo?

And that e-Golf above couldn’t have had a ‘non negotiable’ price of £34k in 2018 if it’s a 2015 model?

Pointless discussion

I highlight the very well documented appalling reliability issues on the Taycan and you ignore them.

We discuss that every five year old petrol Golf depreciates at a slower rate than both the hybrids and the e-Golf, and you ignore it. Ditto the appalling range of first generation EV’s.

These are some of the reasons the EV transition has the wall.

You think it isn’t relevant that an e-Golf has lost more than £20k in five years while a petrol Golf lost just £6k. (Plus financing costs, of course)

Not to worry. At least we’ve kept away from the nonsense about all EVs catching fire, and that only diesels create urban congestion and leave tyre particulates in the lungs of city dwellers.

 

[philnewmerc]

The argument seems to be Mike thinks the Taycan has depreciated catastrophically because it's proving unreliable and it's a first gen EV. Will says its because big 4 door luxobarge cars, including porkers, always depreciate crazily. You're both right, move on...

Personally the lovely Taycan is in my sights for 2030ish if they don't suddenly go up in value or all catch fire

 

[Petrol Pete]

Yrs, as I said, I believed that this was an £83,500 Performance pack 4S plus extras, making it roughly £90k new

Price for the Performance pack as detailed here:
New Porsche Taycan 4S 2021 review | Auto Express

But no matter… isn’t it great to be able to buy a used Taycan for the same money as a used Boxster !?

Hard to understand why the dealers have so many Taycans in stock.

I’d say “let’s rush out there and all buy one quick,” but there are so many much better MB EVs to choose from.

Aren’t there?

The dealers have so many EV's in stock (not just Porsche) because they are being forced on them by the manufacturers , back lots (particularly in the US) are full of EV's waiting (mostly in vain) to be sold.

I suspect it's the same for MBUK . A friend of mine , rather impulsively IMHO , walked into and MB dealership and walked out with a deal on a EQB EV , chose the one his 23 yr old girlfriend wanted from a long list and it was on his drive in 13 days.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The dealers have so many EV's in stock (not just Porsche) because they are being forced on them by the manufacturers , back lots (particularly in the US) are full of EV's waiting (mostly in vain) to be sold.

I suspect it's the same for MBUK . A friend of mine , rather impulsively IMHO , walked into and MB dealership and walked out with a deal on a EQB EV , chose the one his 23 yr old girlfriend wanted from a long list and it was on his drive in 13 days.

Other explanations are available.

My point about the Taycan is that it’s going unsold at a greater rate than other manufacturers because of its measurable, chronic unreliability.

It’s not the manufacturers who are forcing EVs on the dealers. It’s you. You forced the UN to impose an unrealistic pace of conversion to EV, imposing draconian fines on manufacturers who don’t comply. And then you refuse to buy these expensive and unreliable innovative EVs.

You can’t blame the manufacturers for doing what you forced them to do.

 

[Petrol Pete]

Other explanations are available....

Which ones ?

 

[Will]

My point about the Taycan is that it’s going unsold at a greater rate than other manufacturers because of its measurable, chronic unreliability.

I’m not arguing against the reliability of the Taycan, just that you don’t seem to be backing up your point particularly well.

If the Taycan was so unreliable and this was affecting sales, why is it priced higher in terms of residual value than say the Panamera turbo?

And how is the reliability of the Boxster/911?

According to ‘What Car?’ - not great;

Reliability​

In the 2020 What Car? Reliability Survey, Porsche faired poorly as a manufacturer, placing 22nd (joint with Audi) in the 31-strong list of manufacturers. That's a long way behind Toyota in second and BMW in ninth, and just behind Jaguar. And the Boxster itself did terribly in the sports cars and convertibles category, finishing in last place.

911 doesn’t seem to fare well either?

3. Porsche 911 (2019-present)​

Reliability rating 87.3%
Bodywork faults were the main bugbear of Porsche 911 owners, accounting for 25% of all faults. Overall, 33% of 911s had issues, with owners also reporting battery and interior trim faults. Two-thirds took less than a week to fix, but although Porsche paid for 80% of repairs, 20% of owners faced bills over £1500.

Could you explain the relationship between ‘What Car?’ reports on reliability and the impact on values, as it seems to go against what you’re saying

There’s plenty of other cars out there with good residuals and poor reliability, they don’t always go hand in hand in terms of explaining the values or any relationship between the two IMO.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If the Taycan was so unreliable and this was affecting sales, why is it priced higher in terms of residual value than say the Panamera turbo?

You keep confusing the Taycan with cars that are more expensive.

Never mind. Your mind is made up that EVs, and especially the Taycan are selling well, and that the Taycan doesn’t have an huge reliability issue.

Who are we to disagree?

 

[markjay]

The dealers have so many EV's in stock (not just Porsche) because they are being forced on them by the manufacturers , back lots (particularly in the US) are full of EV's waiting (mostly in vain) to be sold.

I suspect it's the same for MBUK . A friend of mine , rather impulsively IMHO , walked into and MB dealership and walked out with a deal on a EQB EV , chose the one his 23 yr old girlfriend wanted from a long list and it was on his drive in 13 days.

I agree with the first paragraph, but I'm not sure that the second is necessarily an indication of anything.

When I was looking for an EV two years ago, the ID.4 and the IONIQ 5 made the shortlist. The ID.4 had a 24 week waiting list. The IONIQ 5 was in stock - I signed on the dotted line on the Friday and collected the car on the Monday. But I am not sure is this means anything?

 

[markjay]

I agree with the first paragraph, but I'm not sure that the second is necessarily an indication of anything.

When I was looking for an EV two years ago, the ID.4 and the IONIQ 5 made the shortlist. The ID.4 had a 24 week delivery date. The IONIQ 5 was in stock - I signed on the dotted line on the Friday and collected the car on the Monday. But I am not sure is this means anything?

 

[Will]

You keep confusing the Taycan with cars that are more expensive.

Never mind. Your mind is made up that EVs, and especially the Taycan are selling well, and that the Taycan doesn’t have an huge reliability issue.

Who are we to disagree?

I’m not confusing anything.

I acknowledge the reported reliability of these cars.

You seem to have focused on two things:

Taycan is unreliable
It’s an EV

And seem to suggest that as a result of these two factors alone, they are not selling well and have poor residual values.

I used the Panamera turbo as a comparison because it cost £45k more new and is only £10k more expensive used after three years.

It’s not an EV and has depreciated significantly more.

And in my opinion it’s a comparable vehicle to the Taycan in terms of size/seating capacity rather than a 2-door/2-seater sports car like the Boxster that you compared it to?

So, in summary, I’m not arguing against the reported reliability issues or the amount that it’s depreciated, just that I don’t feel it’s solely due to the two factors that you have focused on

 

[markjay]

Ten most scrapped car models of 2023

The Ford Focus was the most scrapped car between January and October. But there were more than twice as many cars and vans registered than scrapped during the period.

mol.im

Please share your insights regarding the hidden meaning of these statistics....

 

[Will]

Old cars of low value that were sold in large numbers when new?

Not much else to say really, a lot of those cars are simply an MOT test or one fault away from the crusher once they get to that point of their life cycle

 

[190]

Ten most scrapped car models of 2023

The Ford Focus was the most scrapped car between January and October. But there were more than twice as many cars and vans registered than scrapped during the period.

mol.im

Please share your insights regarding the hidden meaning of these statistics....

The title of the piece is all wrong but then it is the Mail.

The real story is that people are keeping old cars on the road for longer because used values have risen to the extent that repair costs are less likely to write the car off. That looks to reverse now prices are dropping. The other bit of the real story that they did allude to in passing was that number of cars scrapped was only half the the number of new cars registered.

The original source Autocar tells it better with the title and emphasis in the right place.

UK bought twice as many cars as it scrapped this year | Autocar

 

[ALFAitalia]

Just because a car is not scrapped does not mean its on the road..... many are SORN and/or off road to repair or restore......many of those will never see the road again.

EDIT.....Google tells me that over 2 million cars are SORN at the moment!!....rather more than I was expecting.... less than 10% of those never going on the road each year pretty much evens out the figures.
With those figures ( in the Autocar link)the number of cars in the UK should have increased by about a million in the last year..but it hasn't......In fact its "only" gone up by about 300,000....so somethings wrong......or there are one hell of a lot of cars scrapped and not declared as such.

 

[Petrol Pete]

I agree with the first paragraph, but I'm not sure that the second is necessarily an indication of anything.

When I was looking for an EV two years ago, the ID.4 and the IONIQ 5 made the shortlist. The ID.4 had a 24 week waiting list. The IONIQ 5 was in stock - I signed on the dotted line on the Friday and collected the car on the Monday. But I am not sure is this means anything?

Did you get the choice of a long list of IONIQ 's to choose from in all different colours and specifications , Indicating that they had lots in stock ?

 

[Will]

Just because a car is not scrapped does not mean its on the road..... many are SORN and/or off road to repair or restore......many of those will never see the road again.

EDIT.....Google tells me that over 2 million cars are SORN at the moment!!....rather more than I was expecting.... less than 10% of those never going on the road each year pretty much evens out the figures.
With those figures ( in the Autocar link)the number of cars in the UK should have increased by about a million in the last year..but it hasn't......In fact its "only" gone up by about 300,000....so somethings wrong......or there are one hell of a lot of cars scrapped and not declared as such.

Yes, as you say there will no doubt be plenty of cars not in use that haven’t quite made it to the scrapper:

 

[Petrol Pete]

Imagine living next door to this bloke (it will be a bloke) , He seems not to be working on any of them , just gently rotting away, he might own the piece of land in front of the wall .

 

[ALFAitalia]

Bet he REAL popular with the neighbours!!!

 

[markjay]

Did you get the choice of a long list of IONIQ 's to choose from in all different colours and specifications , Indicating that they had lots in stock ?

Don't know.

I emailed the saleslady at Hyundai Watford with my preferred model, and she replied sure we have it in stock. It was at another dealership in the same chain so had to be brought over. I have no idea if I was extremely lucky or perhaps they had loads of them. My preferred model was Ultimate, with both optional packs, RWD, long range. That's exactly what I got. I didn't mind the colour but was pleased with the Gravity Gold Matte (which is more silver than gold) that the car came in.

Regarding the ID.4, the VW dealership had none in stock, they had a few demonstrators (I drove one of them) but said that they are not allowed to sell them before they are 6 months old.

And this is how I ended-up with an IONIQ 5....

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Yes, as you say there will no doubt be plenty of cars not in use that haven’t quite made it to the scrapper:

View attachment 150720

Looks a lot like Chez Dazzler.