The EV fact thread

[Will]

Doesn't that make a Panamera Turbo, starting at £135k, a vehicle in a different league to a Taycan starting at £80k?

Here we go: Taycan Turbo 4S. £150k, yours... three years on; 45% down at a bargain £85k.

(Don't tell anyone but everyone says the Turbo 4S is a waste of money over the 4: a performance difference that's barely noticeable)

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The Taycan you first posted was a ‘performance plus’ which starts at over £90k (plus options?)



But the point of your post was to illustrate how much percentage wise EVs depreciate?

The Panamera turbo as an example at a similar age (2020 ‘20’ vs ‘70 plate) but with slightly lower mileage (35k vs 50k) was only £10k more expensive - but was around £45k more new.

So the point of my post was that it’s not just EVs that depreciate heavily - in terms of numbers and percentage that £135k plus Panamera turbo costing a whopping £45k more new is only £10k more than the Taycan you posted?

Nothing new here though as I say, larger/expensive luxury/prestige vehicles usually suffer strong depreciation especially when new, it’s not exclusive to EVs

 

[markjay]

The car originally posted covered 50k miles in 3 years....... the others had much lower mileage. On a Porsche, this must have a significant effect on second hand value?

 

[Will]

The car originally posted covered 50k miles in 3 years....... the others had much lower mileage. On a Porsche, this must have a significant effect on second hand value?

Agreed

The point I was making to Mike was that despite it being a cheaper car new (c. £90k vs. £135k) and with higher mileage compared to the Panamera turbo example I posted, the Taycan was still holding better residual value in percentage terms and was only £10k less expensive used despite being £45k cheaper when it was new to begin with!

That’s ignoring the fact that it’s an EV, about to burst into flames, no-one wants them and they are worthless second hand

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The Taycan you first posted was a ‘performance plus’ which starts at over £90k (plus options?)

View attachment 150579

But the point of your post was to illustrate how much percentage wise EVs depreciate?

The Panamera turbo as an example at a similar age (2020 ‘20’ vs ‘70 plate) but with slightly lower mileage (35k vs 50k) was only £10k more expensive - but was around £45k more new.

So the point of my post was that it’s not just EVs that depreciate heavily - in terms of numbers and percentage that £135k plus Panamera turbo costing a whopping £45k more new is only £10k more than the Taycan you posted?

Nothing new here though as I say, larger/expensive luxury/prestige vehicles usually suffer strong depreciation especially when new, it’s not exclusive to EVs

Yrs, as I said, I believed that this was an £83,500 Performance pack 4S plus extras, making it roughly £90k new

Price for the Performance pack as detailed here:
New Porsche Taycan 4S 2021 review | Auto Express

But no matter… isn’t it great to be able to buy a used Taycan for the same money as a used Boxster !?

Hard to understand why the dealers have so many Taycans in stock.

I’d say “let’s rush out there and all buy one quick,” but there are so many much better MB EVs to choose from.

Aren’t there?

 

[Will]

Yes, as I said, I believed it was a £90k 4S, including extras, back in 2020.

But no matter… isn’t it great to be able to buy a used Taycan for the same money as a used Boxster !?

Hard to understand why the dealers have so many Taycans in stock.

I’d say “let’s rush out there and all buy one quick,” but there are so many much better MB EVs to choose from.

Aren’t there?

Not many 2020 Boxsters with 50k+ miles though.

Yes, same manufacturer but totally different sort of car - similarly to the 911, Boxsters have pretty good residuals - unlike the 4/5 seat/door Cayenne, Panamera or Taycan

IMHO it would be like comparing the Golf GTI residuals you mentioned previously to a Touareg (or Phaeton if they still made them!)

 

[Will]

How does the VW Arteon compare residual wise vs. the Golf?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

There’s a reason that Porsche dealers “persuade” that would-be Porsche GT product buyers to buy a basket of Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, and Taycan, before they’re considered for an allocation.

All are truly superb cars but they’re volume models and supply outstrips demand, so they sell a few more by bundling with GT models where demand exceeds supply many times over. Residual values reflect.

The residuals of the Macan was (and probably still is) the best of the volume models, and so buying a few of those hurt less than buying a few Paneameras in order to receive a GT product allocation.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Not many 2020 Boxsters with 50k+ miles though.

Yes, same manufacturer but totally different sort of car - similarly to the 911, Boxsters have pretty good residuals - unlike the 4/5 seat/door Cayenne, Panamera or Taycan

IMHO it would be like comparing the Golf GTI residuals you mentioned previously to a Touareg (or Phaeton if they still made them!)

Yes, we've discussed, the residuals on 1.0 TSI Golfs, 1.5 TSI Golfs and 2.0 GTI's are so better than hybrid GTE Golfs.

Excellent news though, those high spec "Performance" Taycans will be flying off the shelves now that they're close to Boxster & Cayman prices.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

How does the VW Arteon compare residual wise vs. the Golf?

What's an Arteon?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Here's that 2022 What Car reliability survey for electric vehicles that I mentioned earlier.

The Taycan was rated 20th out of 20

2023 What Car? Reliability Survey: Most and least reliable electric cars

Least reliable electric cars​

1. Porsche Taycan (2019-present)​

Reliability rating 66.5%
What went wrong? Air-con 31%, non-motor electrics 31%, sat-nav/infotainment 15%, battery 8%, brakes 8%, motor electrics 8%, interior trim 8%

The Porsche Taycan is one of the fastest electric cars you can buy, but it’s not one of the most reliable. Of the cars in our survey, a hefty 46% went wrong, with owners citing the air-con and infotainment system as the main trouble spots. All remedial work was done for free, but two-thirds of the stricken cars were out of action for more than a week.
Owner’s view “My car is off the road with a failed heater matrix, and Porsche cannot predict how long the repair will take.”

 

[Will]

Yes, we've discussed, the residuals on 1.0 TSI Golfs, 1.5 TSI Golfs and 2.0 GTI's are so better than hybrid GTE Golfs.

Excellent news though, those high spec "Performance" Taycans will be flying off the shelves now that they're close to Boxster & Cayman prices.

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I’m not really getting your point.

Someone who wants a 2-seater convertible Porsche sports car isn’t likely to buy a 4/5 door, 4/5 seater Porsche designed for family orientated customers just because it’s cheap?

Would you go shopping for an MX5 and buy a Mazda 6 just because it cost more new?

Likewise we’ve established that the VW Golf has always tended to have pretty solid residuals.

And I’m sure the larger more expensive VW models have suffered worse depreciation going back to before EVs became more mainstream too

 

[Will]

Here's that 2022 What Car reliability survey for electric vehicles that I mentioned earlier.

The Taycan was rated 20th out of 20

2023 What Car? Reliability Survey: Most and least reliable electric cars

Least reliable electric cars​

1. Porsche Taycan (2019-present)​

Reliability rating 66.5%
What went wrong? Air-con 31%, non-motor electrics 31%, sat-nav/infotainment 15%, battery 8%, brakes 8%, motor electrics 8%, interior trim 8%

The Porsche Taycan is one of the fastest electric cars you can buy, but it’s not one of the most reliable. Of the cars in our survey, a hefty 46% went wrong, with owners citing the air-con and infotainment system as the main trouble spots. All remedial work was done for free, but two-thirds of the stricken cars were out of action for more than a week.
Owner’s view “My car is off the road with a failed heater matrix, and Porsche cannot predict how long the repair will take.”

Complex new luxury vehicle suffers some (mainly non-EV specific/related) reliability issues?

Plenty of articles out there citing poor reliability for Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc and how about Land Rover (who don’t seem to have struggled to sell cars with reliability issues for decades now!)

In the article you linked to, the e-Golf is claimed the 2nd most reliable EV out there, so the residuals in question can’t be related to that since you reckoned no-one wanted them and they’re almost worthless second hand

 

[markjay]

What's an Arteon?

Basically what replaced the Phaeton - a luxurious VW.

 

[ALFAitalia]

No it didn't....it replaced the Passat CC...like a VW version of the Merc CLS. The Phaeton was the VW version of the Audi A8. The Arteon is a rather smaller car than the Phaeton.....but it did go a bit further up market than the CC and was better equipped.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Basically what replaced the Phaeton - a luxurious VW.

Wasn’t the Phaeton the shared D1 platform with the Bentley Flying Spur and Continental? Its shared underpinnings, including a W12 engine, but not the diesel, going being in the Crewe product?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Complex new luxury vehicle suffers some (mainly non-EV specific/related) reliability issues?

Plenty of articles out there citing poor reliability for Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc and how about Land Rover (who don’t seem to have struggled to sell cars with reliability issues for decades now!)

In the article you linked to, the e-Golf is claimed the 2nd most reliable EV out there, so the residuals in question can’t be related to that since you reckoned no-one wanted them and they’re almost worthless second hand

Have you heard of What Car?

This is a study of the reliability specifically of EVs, which gives an owner rating of over 90% to the top 12 EVs, and a user reliability rating of a jaw dropping 65% to the Porsche Taycan. Far, far behind the rest of the field.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

In the article you linked to, the e-Golf is claimed the 2nd most reliable EV out there, so the residuals in question can’t be related to that since you reckoned no-one wanted them and they’re almost worthless second hand

I haven’t claimed that e-Golfs are “almost worthless” because of unreliability. I’ve simply pointed out that e-Golf residuals are worse than a petrol Golf.

I’ve driven quite a few miles in e-Golf Zipcar rentals and I’ve never seen a faulty one.

At three years old a £34,000 e-Golf has retained just 40% of its new price at just £13k: and there’s plenty to choose from. Pay top whack: £14k and you get you high spec, one owner.

 

[Will]

Have you heard of What Car?

This is a study of the reliability specifically of EVs, which gives an owner rating of over 90% to the top 12 EVs, and a user reliability rating of a jaw dropping 65% to the Porsche Taycan. Far, far behind the rest of the field.

I’m not disputing their survey.

It’s just that the same article you linked to gives a glowing report for the e-Golf.

So what is the relevance of the report? Are you suggesting that the reason the Taycan has better residuals than the Panamera turbo is because ‘What Car?’ think it’s unreliable?

How about the e-Golf and the residuals on that?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I’m not disputing their survey.

It’s just that the same article you linked to gives a glowing report for the e-Golf.

So what is the relevance of the report? Are you suggesting that the reason the Taycan has better residuals than the Panamera turbo is because ‘What Car?’ think it’s unreliable?

How about the e-Golf and the residuals on that?

We talked earlier about the £18k Golf 1.0’s being worth £12k at five years old. Retaining two thirds of their new price of £18k.

The e-Golf, which was a non-negotiable £34k in 2018, now retains one third of its new price at typically £11k. This well specified one has lots of extras like leather, camera etc. Which nudge its value up, just slightly.

The 2018 e-Golf is a poor choice, even at one third of its original price, not because of reliability, but because of range: 110 miles, or, more realistically, 70 miles between top ups

The later 2020 e-Golf is well worth the extra £3k for a more practical range of 145 miles or, more realistically, 100 miles between charges.

 

[Will]

We talked earlier about the £18k Golf 1.0’s being worth £12k at five years old. Retaining two thirds of their price new.

The e-Golf, which was a non-negotiable £34k in 2018, now retains one third of its new price at typically £11k. This well specified one has lots of extras like leather, camera etc. Which nudge its value up, just slightly.

View attachment 150702

Precisely illustrating my point

What’s the relevance of the What Car? survey for reliability in relation to the discussion of residual values of these EVs?

Taycan values appear to have better residuals than the e-Golf - despite being at opposite ends of the survey?

And likewise they seem to have better residuals than a petrol-engined Panamera turbo?

And that e-Golf above couldn’t have had a ‘non negotiable’ price of £34k in 2018 if it’s a 2015 model?