The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

That depends on the actual usable lifespan of these vehicles. A second owner who buys at 3 years old and keeps it for 3 or 4 years will be OK assuming it has an 8 year battery warranty. But when they come to sell with 2 years or less of manufacturers warranty left the value of the car will reflect that, given that most manufacturers have been quite open about an expected lifespan of 8-10 years. IMHO nobody in their right mind is going to spend serious money on a well used BEV with little or no warranty left. From a quick Google Tesla's own 'certified pre-owned' (used car) warranty only applies up to a maximum of 5 years or 60k miles (whichever comes first). The battery and drive unit warranty always remains based on the date of first sale, and cannot be extended.

Speaking of warranties we can be reasonably confident that Ford, Mercedes, BMW, etc. will still be around 8 years from now to honour their warranties. But that very likely won't be the case for all the newer/smaller 'EV only' companies that are springing up now. If one of those folds and the warranty disappears the value of used cars from them would likely crash overnight. Or are these warranties independently backed?

Just done a quick and simple check on Autotrader. The earliest Teslas in the UK were registered in 2014 so very close to 10 years old now so well into the oft cited 8-10 year life span.

There are 19 for sale, the least expensive is £15,990 with 116k miles, the most expensive is £37,495 with 114k miles, and there are 14 cars priced at more than £20k (74% of those available).

At the time it was seen by the motoring press as an EV alternative for the the BMW 5-series, and at around that time the 5-series was regarded (by the press) as one of the very best cars in the real world.

The same search criteria shows 219 5-series for sale. The least expensive is £4,490 with 188k miles, the most expensive is £20,995 with 43k miles, and just 1 car priced at more than £20k (0.5% of those available).

Arguments like there being far fewer Model S, the average mileage of 5-series being higher, the average new cost of the 5-series being lower - and others - are probably all valid reasons for some of the price difference at 10 years old.

However it seems the market doesn’t agree with a hypothesis that you’d have to be mad to buy an 8-10 year old EV. With advances over the last ten years then I would imagine the confidence in a 2024 model will only be greater in 10 years time.

 

[Ted]

Took the opportunity to look thoroughly at the EQS, EQE and EQC again.

Regardless of drivetrain, who wants a squashed potato on their driveway? Let alone a heavyweight squashed potato….


View attachment 151439

Ah, at last, someone who can see that the emperor has no clothes.

Except the EQS.
I saw one on the M25 a while back and got a good look as traffic was stop/start.
Absolutely stunning in the metal. It really stood out among the mundane BMWAudi/<insert car make here>.
I think Mercedes got the styling right here- no mean feat for a large car.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Ah, at last, someone who can see that the emperor has no clothes.

Except the EQS.

Each to their own

 

[BTB 500]

However it seems the market doesn’t agree with a hypothesis that you’d have to be mad to buy an 8-10 year old EV. With advances over the last ten years then I would imagine the confidence in a 2024 model will only be greater in 10 years time.

So why won't Tesla give you a warranty (other than the original battery one) on a carefully selected, fully inspected used model that's over 5 years old or above 60k miles?

How many Li Ion battery packs have you owned that have still been working fine after 10 years?

 

[MeQ]

Ah, at last, someone who can see that the emperor has no clothes.

Except the EQS.

Very little difference looks wise between EQS and EQE, debadged you’d be pushed to notice.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

So why won't Tesla give you a warranty (other than the original battery one) on a carefully selected, fully inspected used model that's over 5 years old or above 60k miles?

Not sure

How many Li Ion battery packs have you owned that have still been working fine after 10 years?

Most modern battery powered devices become obsolete before their battery “dies”. Many cars become uneconomic to repair before their engine dies, it may be the same with EVs and batteries given time. The vast majority of EVs by volume haven’t reached that point.

 

[BTB 500]

Not sure


Most modern battery powered devices become obsolete before their battery “dies”. Many cars become uneconomic to repair before their engine dies, it may be the same with EVs and batteries given time. The vast majority of EVs by volume haven’t reached that point.

I'm sure if Tesla thought it was financially viable to give a warranty on older cars then they would do so. From what you've said there seems to be a ready market for them (if people actually buy at those prices). It will be interesting to see what MB do with the 'Approved Used' warranty - I had a look today and the oldest electric car currently listed is a 2019.

Don't agree about battery powered devices - phones typically start to lose battery life pretty quickly (2-3 years or less), and things like garden tools, drills etc. don't really become obsolete.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

So why won't Tesla give you a warranty (other than the original battery one) on a carefully selected, fully inspected used model that's over 5 years old or above 60k miles?

Can you provide a link? According to the Tesla website, an approved used (“Certified Pre-Owned” in Teslaese) Tesla has the balance of the original 8-year Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.

For the 8 year warranty not to exceed the 1 year Used Vehicle Limited Warranty offered at the point of sale then the Certified Pre-owned car would need to be more than 7 years old at the point of sale, ie <01/2017.

For reference, Mercedes don’t list any approved used car older than 04/2016 and just 60 of 7,651 were registered before 01/2017, so less than 0.8% of all cars listed as AUC. None are older than 8 years.

Unfortunately the BMW website doesn’t show the total number of cars available but just 248 of their Approved Used cars are older than 7 years old, and like Mercedes NONE are older than 8 years old.

The eight year cut-off for Manufacturer “Approved Used” cars is common for mainstream vehicles, and the very few exceptions are usually sold with a dealer warranty (eg Sytner), not an AUC warranty.

Porsche, Ferrari and other niche brands are known to list much older cars as approved used cars but that’s a completely different part of the market from Mercedes, BMW and definitely different to Tesla!

I haven’t read the T&Cs of the Used Vehicle Limited Warranty in detail but a quick scan suggests that batteries and drive units are excluded during the period of the 8 year Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.

The same exclusion also cites the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, and several other warranties backed by the manufacturer in the same sentence, and so it’s fair to assume they can be treated the same.

It’s therefore likely to be a due to the manufacturer warranty picking up the cost in the event of a claim for an item covered by those warranties, which is true for Mercedes and other manufacturers too.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I'm sure if Tesla thought it was financially viable to give a warranty on older cars then they would do so.

My last post covers this.

Don't agree about battery powered devices - phones typically start to lose battery life pretty quickly (2-3 years or less), and things like garden tools, drills etc. don't really become obsolete.

Mobile phones battery performance does reduce but are an extreme use case. They’re properly abused, run flat fat too often (big impact on battery life), and charged to 100% pretty much every time (again not good for battery life).

My iPhone XS is well over 5 years old now, and has been absolutely hammered. It’s been used for more than 7.5 hours so far today and it’s only 1500, and has been charged to 100% twice in the last 10 hours. That’s typical use for me. It still has 78% battery health.

I’m not a tradesperson so my power tools don’t have too many recharge cycles but I can’t ever remember ever replacing a power tool (or it’s battery) due battery performance, not once. I’m not convinced I’m an outlier either?

 

[clk320x]

Can you provide a link? According to the Tesla website, an approved used (“Certified Pre-Owned” in Teslaese) Tesla has the balance of the original 8-year Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.

Yes 8 years from registration on battery/drive unit - older cars were also UNLIMITED miles.

4 years from new on everything else on the car from new & 1 year on EVERYTHING on the car on a used purchase + existing drive unit/battery warranty.

It’s funny as on these groups all people seem to worry about is the battery dying, but if you join actual Tesla groups you’ll see actual issues with drive units and batteries are extremely rare, even on older cars.

 

[BTB 500]

Can you provide a link? According to the Tesla website, an approved used (“Certified Pre-Owned” in Teslaese) Tesla has the balance of the original 8-year Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.

Yes I mentioned that the original battery/drive unit warranty still applied (not sure if it's always been 8 years on all models). For the rest of the car though:

Used Vehicle Limited Warranty
The Used Vehicle Limited Warranty gives additional peace of mind to owners of Certified Pre-Owned vehicles purchased directly from Tesla.

Tesla Certified Pre-Owned vehicles are covered by the remainder of 4 years or 50,000 miles left on the Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty. After expiration, the Used Vehicle Limited Warranty provides additional coverage of 1 year or 10,000 miles. If the Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty has already expired, the Used Vehicle Limited Warranty will provide coverage of 1 year or 10,000 miles, starting from your delivery date.

The balance of original Battery and Drive Unit Limited warranty still applies for Certified Pre-Owned vehicles.

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/vehicle-warranty#:~:text=Tesla%20Certified%20Pre%2DOwned%20vehicles,1%20year%20or%2010%2C000%20miles.

So on a used car you get a maximum of 1 year or 10k miles after the original 4 year / 40k mile warranty expires. After that there's no cover (again, apart from the remaining battery/drive warranty).

Tesla are the undoubted experts on their own vehicles, obviously with full access to vehicle history and service details, and could choose to sell only their pick of older used cars ... carefully selected after full tests & diagnostics. So not to cover anything older than 5 years doesn't indicate much confidence in their longevity, IMHO.

For reference, Mercedes don’t list any approved used car older than 04/2016 and just 60 of 7,651 were registered before 01/2017, so less than 0.8% of all cars listed as AUC. None are older than 8 years.

Yup I had a feeling 8 years was a fairly normal cutoff for MB (I've bought two AU cars at 7 years old). You obviously get a year's warranty (so cover up to 9 years old ... don't think there's a mileage limit?), with possibly the option to extend after that (I've never done that so not sure if there's an age limit in the T&Cs). All of which would be extremely generous compared to what Tesla offers, so my question really was whether MB would offer this for EVs (academic at the moment as there aren't any that are old enough). If not they could either have a different version of the AU warranty for them, or just choose not to not sell older EVs through the scheme.

 

[markjay]

...However it seems the market doesn’t agree with a hypothesis that you’d have to be mad to buy an 8-10 year old EV...

Huh? But the chap on YouTube said......

 

[BTB 500]

Mobile phones battery performance does reduce but are an extreme use case. They’re properly abused, run flat fat too often (big impact on battery life), and charged to 100% pretty much every time (again not good for battery life).

I suspect with increasing charger power levels and ever faster charging EVs can also push battery cells pretty hard, depending on how they've been (ab)used over the years (frequency of fast vs slow charging, how often discharged below 20% etc.).

I’m not a tradesperson so my power tools don’t have too many recharge cycles

Same for me, and older ones may well have more robust NiMH packs anyway. From a quick Google though premium tool brands (Bosch, DeWalt, Makita, etc.) seem to give a 2-3 year warranty on their Li Ion packs and they're expected to give around 1000 charge cycles.

 

[clk320x]

I suspect with increasing charger power levels and ever faster charging EVs can also push battery cells pretty hard, depending on how they've been (ab)used over the years (frequency of fast vs slow charging, how often discharged below 20% etc.).

I posted data on here before disproving the fact that supercharging affected battery health due to the BMS being so good at managing the temps. That’s 250kW peak which is already ‘too fast’ for most people as you can barely get a bite to eat before it’s done.

 

[pioneercollector]

All i can add to this thread in a factual way is the fact that one of our small fleet of Nissan ENV-200 vans is 9 years old in March and has just completed 100,000 miles, which doesn't sound that many however you must bear in mind that on a full charge from new the range was then around 80 miles, and now it is ...... around 80 miles.
So no battery degradation on this or any of the other early vans we run ( We have 4 ), I have just replaced one of the earliest ones with the new 'Townstar' Teckna+ ' this will realistically ( and is delivering ) around 150 miles per charge. ( Around 3.4 miles per Kwh )

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Yes 8 years from registration on battery/drive unit - older cars were also UNLIMITED miles.

4 years from new on everything else on the car from new & 1 year on EVERYTHING on the car on a used purchase + existing drive unit/battery warranty.

It’s funny as on these groups all people seem to worry about is the battery dying, but if you join actual Tesla groups you’ll see actual issues with drive units and batteries are extremely rare, even on older cars.

That’s what the Tesla page said which I read earlier too.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

So on a used car you get a maximum of 1 year or 10k miles after the original 4 year / 40k mile warranty expires. After that there's no cover (again, apart from the remaining battery/drive warranty).

So not to cover anything older than 5 years doesn't indicate much confidence in their longevity, IMHO.

Why do you think they Tesla won’t provide a warranty on anything older than 5 years?

If I interpret your logic correctly then Mercedes have even less confidence in their cars than Tesla because they only offer a 3 year new car warranty and a 12 month used car warranty:

• Tesla: 4y new car + 1y used car = 5y
• MB: 3y new car + 1y used car = 4y

The Used Vehicle Limited Warranty will start from the point of sale (if older than 4 years) or at the end of the new car warranty (if older than 3 years, but less than 4 years). It will not apply to cars less than 3 years old as the new car warranty will exceed the 12 month used car warranty period.

If the Tesla is 3.5 years old at the point of sale then there will be 6 months of “new car” warranty and 6 months of “used car warranty”, or if the Tesla is 5.5 years old at the point of sale then there will be 12 months of “used car warranty”. This is the same as other brands including Mercedes.

Edited to add: PS You can extend the Tesla warranty by up to 4 years on top of the original 4 years new car warranty, so up to 8 years old.

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/extended-warranty

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I suspect with increasing charger power levels and ever faster charging EVs can also push battery cells pretty hard, depending on how they've been (ab)used over the years (frequency of fast vs slow charging, how often discharged below 20% etc.).

Maybe but it’s all speculation as the cars aren’t old enough to know. The cars which are old enough to know - like 2014 Tesla Model S - have potentially been “supercharged” for 10 years but are holding up quite well.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Same for me, and older ones may well have more robust NiMH packs anyway. From a quick Google though premium tool brands (Bosch, DeWalt, Makita, etc.) seem to give a 2-3 year warranty on their Li Ion packs and they're expected to give around 1000 charge cycles.

Brands aimed at professional use give 2-3 years so their expectation of reasonable life expectancy will be well beyond the warranty period of 2-3 years, and even more for domestic use.

Same with electric cars. Those covering 250 miles per day will be charged daily’s. Those covering 250 miles per week only need be charged weekly. Most “domestic” cars could be charged fortnightly.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

All i can add to this thread in a factual way is the fact that one of our small fleet of Nissan ENV-200 vans is 9 years old in March and has just completed 100,000 miles, which doesn't sound that many however you must bear in mind that on a full charge from new the range was then around 80 miles, and now it is ...... around 80 miles.
So no battery degradation on this or any of the other early vans we run ( We have 4 ), I have just replaced one of the earliest ones with the new 'Townstar' Teckna+ ' this will realistically ( and is delivering ) around 150 miles per charge. ( Around 3.4 miles per Kwh )

What do you know though? Real world experience of running multiple vehicles over a period several times longer than most people would keep their car, over a combined mileage of many multiples of what most people will cover, using relatively old battery and charging technology, counts for nothing.

I’ll carry on believing what a bloke on the Internet said might be the case in future…