The EV fact thread

[Bobby Dazzler]

as the second hand market values are showing at the moment (even with Tesla cars), brand new expensive car ownership is back to being financial suicide unless you're filthy rich.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Petrol Pete]

What we must remember is that this guy lives in Australia (British born) and his comments on charging opportunities are Australian based. He does quote facts , but agreed he is anti EV . This might be fuelled more by the direction the Australian government is taking and use of taxpayers dollars. Which he obviously disagrees with.

The EV depreciation thing is real , but they are not the only things that are depreciating right now.

 

[markjay]

Fixed that for you.

It's not a bad thing, mind. The fifty rich buy a fast deprecating new EVs and get hammered come sale time, and us mere-mortals get to buy them cheap second hand - sounds ideal.

But the criticism isn't entirely unfair either - because most new expensive EVs are supplied on a business lease thanks to generous tax exemptions paid-for by the taxpayer, and when Joe Public pick up a second-hand one for cheap and is excited about the great bargain he just bagged, what Joe Public may not appreciate is that he's been subsidising this car all along from day one.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Something really baffles me. Some people bash EVs for being too expensive and cite it as a reason not to buy one (at a time that everything was too expensive), and then the same people bash EVs for depreciating too heavily and cite it as a reason not to buy one” (at a time that the car market and other asset/cost values are correcting).

The same people have short memories, brand new expensive cars - and cars popular with fleets - have always depreciated very heavily, and has forever been the case until the recent market anomaly which seems to have done a hard reset on those people’s memory.

 

[ChipChop]

As EV's are being touted as the latest and greatest invention in personal transport, the future of personal mobility, the heavy depreciation should come as a surprise.

They should be in high demand and residuals should reflect that demand. Unless the reality is there is little demand for used EV's.

Perhaps the EV industry (largely Kryten social media types) should address the issues surrounding low second hand EV demand instead of repeating ad nauseam the EV as a pathway to a future of sunlit uplands?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

It's not a bad thing, mind. The fifty rich buy a fast deprecating new EVs and get hammered come sale time, and us mere-mortals get to buy them cheap second hand - sounds ideal.

But the criticism isn't entirely unfair either - because most new expensive EVs are supplied on a business lease thanks to generous tax exemptions paid-for by the taxpayer, and when Joe Public pick up a second-hand one for cheap and is excited about the great bargain he just bagged, what Joe Public may not appreciate is that he's been subsidising this car all along from day one.

True but the reality is that a surprising number of tax payers don’t pay enough income tax to fully meet the cost of their children’s education, never mind fund the tax incentives on EVs and everything else funded from the public purse.

Even when you add in VAT the average person doesn’t pay that much in tax.The reality is that real tax burden - EV incentives and everything else - is met by the relatively well off, the “filthy rich” and companies. Not a popular belief amongst the majority, but true.

 

[clk320x]

True but the reality is that a surprising number of tax payers don’t pay enough income tax to fully meet the cost of their children’s education, never mind fund the tax incentives on EVs and everything else funded from the public purse.

This is a great point, and one I’ve started using in discussion a lot. A lot of people are honestly surprised to hear it.

 

[markjay]

True but the reality is that a surprising number of tax payers don’t pay enough income tax to fully meet the cost of their children’s education, never mind fund the tax incentives on EVs and everything else funded from the public purse.

Even when you add in VAT the average person doesn’t pay that much in tax.The reality is that real tax burden - EV incentives and everything else - is met by the relatively well off, the “filthy rich” and companies. Not a popular belief amongst the majority, but true.

Interesting.

How much tax do the rich really pay? | LSE Research

Read about research from LSE’s Andy Summers and Arun Advani on taxation, how much the rich pay and whether the UK should have a wealth tax?

www.lse.ac.uk

"The top one per cent pay 30 per cent of all income tax revenues"

(And that's just Income Tax)

 

[markjay]

This is a great point, and one I’ve started using in discussion a lot. A lot of people are honestly surprised to hear it.

Does this mean that Joe Public gets a (nearly) free lunch when he's buying a heavily depreciated EV?

 

[markjay]

As EV's are being touted as the latest and greatest invention in personal transport, the future of personal mobility, the heavy depreciation should come as a surprise.

They should be in high demand and residuals should reflect that demand. Unless the reality is there is little demand for used EV's. Maybe the EV industry (Kryten social media types) should address the issues surrounding low second hand EV demand?

You're not taking into account supply and demand...

This is a point I've made before, when finance providers get new cars for cheap (they pay the manufacturer well under RRP) and then lease them, these cars get dumped on the second hand market in droves when they come off their leases, typically after two or three years. The over-supply drives down prices.

This is how I got my two Omegas (a fleet favourite back in the day), and my two C-Class.

EV or no EV, you just need to know how to buy in order to bag a bargain

(Tapping myself on the shoulder for being astute)

 

[MeQ]

You're not taking into account supply and demand...

This is a point I've made before, when finance providers get new cars for cheap (they pay the manufacturer well under RRP) and then lease them, these cars get dumped on the second hand market in droves when they come off their leases, typically after two or three years. The over-supply drives down prices.

This is how I got my two Omegas (a fleet favourite back in the day), and my two C-Class.

EV or no EV, you just need to know how to buy in order to bag a bargain

(Tapping myself on the shoulder for being astute)

I’m yet to find an EQE available for anywhere near the deal I got and at the time it would have cost me more to get into an ICE with inferior spec once fuel and VED was taken into account… no brainer.

 

[ChipChop]

You're not taking into account supply and demand...

This is a point I've made before, when finance providers get new cars for cheap (they pay the manufacturer well under RRP) and then lease them, these cars get dumped on the second hand market in droves when they come off their leases, typically after two or three years. The over-supply drives down prices.

This is how I got my two Omegas (a fleet favourite back in the day), and my two C-Class.

EV or no EV, you just need to know how to buy in order to bag a bargain

(Tapping myself on the shoulder for being astute)

Your theory would be valid if EV's enjoyed a significant market share in the UK. They do not.

 

[BTB 500]

Great news for second hand buyers, then

That depends on the actual usable lifespan of these vehicles. A second owner who buys at 3 years old and keeps it for 3 or 4 years will be OK assuming it has an 8 year battery warranty. But when they come to sell with 2 years or less of manufacturers warranty left the value of the car will reflect that, given that most manufacturers have been quite open about an expected lifespan of 8-10 years. IMHO nobody in their right mind is going to spend serious money on a well used BEV with little or no warranty left. From a quick Google Tesla's own 'certified pre-owned' (used car) warranty only applies up to a maximum of 5 years or 60k miles (whichever comes first). The battery and drive unit warranty always remains based on the date of first sale, and cannot be extended.

Speaking of warranties we can be reasonably confident that Ford, Mercedes, BMW, etc. will still be around 8 years from now to honour their warranties. But that very likely won't be the case for all the newer/smaller 'EV only' companies that are springing up now. If one of those folds and the warranty disappears the value of used cars from them would likely crash overnight. Or are these warranties independently backed?

 

[markjay]

Your theory would be valid if EV's enjoyed a significant market share in the UK. They do not.

Why is "market share" relevant here?

Most (if not all) new car business leases in the UK are EVs. These cars come off their leases after two or three years.

This drives down second-hand EV values.

Nothing to do with EV "market share"?

 

[ChipChop]

Why is "market share" relevant here?

Most (if not all) new car business leases in the UK are EVs. These cars come off their leases after two or three years.

This drives down second-hand EV values.

Nothing to do with EV "market share"?

There are still not that many EV's on the roads in the UK.

The UK's EV best seller the Tesla model Y sold 35,000 cars in 2022 which is not a significant number of cars in the general scheme of things. For context Nissan produced over 500,000 ICE Quashqai's in the first 18 months of production.

Low supply of EV's should mean high demand in the second hand market but that is not happening.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Interesting.

How much tax do the rich really pay? | LSE Research

Read about research from LSE’s Andy Summers and Arun Advani on taxation, how much the rich pay and whether the UK should have a wealth tax?

www.lse.ac.uk

"The top one per cent pay 30 per cent of all income tax revenues"

(And that's just Income Tax)

According to the ONS the average UK salary was £34,963 in April 2023, and according to the UK Government the average funding allocated to schools for 5-16 year olds was £7,460 in 2023.

If 100% of income tax paid by someone earning the UK average salary (£4,476) was used solely to educate their children - and nothing else, like healthcare, benefits, defence, national infrastructure etc - then it would cover the cost of educating one of their children until 7 August.

Again assuming that 100% of income tax paid is used solely to educate their children - and nothing else - then the tax payer would need to earn £68,750 to cover the cost educating two children for the full year.

Both calculations assume that no benefits are received however in practice some or all of the tax paid will be offset by benefits. For example a tax payer receiving the UK average salary would pay £4,476.80 in income tax but would received £2,074.80 in child allowance, meaning that it would cover the cost of educating one of their children until 26 April.

Well off and filthy rich are relative terms but let’s assume that well off has income around double that of the average salary, and filthy rich is around ten times the average salary. A person earning £68,750 pays 3.3x more - and a person earning £350,000 pays 30.8x more - income tax than someone earning the average.

It’s only right that those who earn more contribute more (ie pay more tax), however the popular belief of the majority is that the “average” working class person is hard done by because the wealthy don't pay their way in terms of taxes. Completely natural, but completely flawed.

Personally I’m really thankful that those well off and filthy rich people earn what they earn - and not just because their expensive cars depreciate heavily for the rest of us to buy for much less years down the line - but because “everyone elses” tax burden would be much greater without them. Ironically removing the rich would make us all poorer!

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

There are still not that many EV's on the roads in the UK.

The UK's EV best seller the Tesla model Y sold 35,000 cars in 2022 which is not a significant number of cars in the general scheme of things. For context Nissan produced over 500,000 ICE Quashqai's in the first 18 months of production.

Low supply of EV's should mean high demand in the second hand market but that is not happening.

Since supply chain challenges were resolved - across all industries - there’s not been “low supply” of EVs, unless you know differently?

 

[markjay]

There are still not that many EV's on the roads in the UK.

The UK's EV best seller the Tesla model Y sold 35,000 cars in 2022 which is not a significant number of cars in the general scheme of things. For context Nissan produced over 500,000 ICE Quashqai's in the first 18 months of production.

Low supply of EV's should mean high demand in the second hand market but that is not happening.

That's because EV is a market segment on its own, i.e. it's not competing against the ICE cars segment.

The discrepancy between the supply of ICE cars and the supply of EVs cars is therefore irrelevant.

To your point, of course desirability is a factor affecting second hand car prices, among many other factors - but to try and isolate it as the only factor affecting prices while ignoring all others is, to my mind, disingenuous.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Let’s ignore the “haters got to hate” drivel- they’re too dumb to research things for themselves. “Shake it off, shake it off…”

When are the manufacturers going to come up with EVs that look good and handle well?

I’ve just been into MB Weybridge this morning for a Manufacturer’s Recall - usual regulatory nonsense: five minutes in front of the Engineer and nothing needs doing. (But I did get a free car wash)

Took the opportunity to look thoroughly at the EQS, EQE and EQC again.

Regardless of drivetrain, who wants a squashed potato on their driveway? Let alone a heavyweight squashed potato….



Cause the players gonna play, play, play, play, play
And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake
I shake it off, I shake it off (ooh-ooh-ooh)

 

[MeQ]

I’m the first to admit the EQE is far better looking from the back than any other angle. Apart from the radar/sensors being in the front badge I have no idea why they thought the big ‘grill’ in piano black was a good idea with or without graphics.