Tuning is a waste of money: Tell me i'm wrong

[RBYCC]

Once again an individual hijacks the thread and turns it into an anti-American campaign.

If you know nothing about performance then stay to OT subjects as "Films' that better suite you.

The irony is that the dolt uses an icon of "creeping Americanism" as his avatar...
A TV or excuse me "telly" character of Columbo played by Peter Falk...
Can't get much more blatantly American !!

Perhaps he admires the short "raincoat" which in "creeping Americanism" terms is worn by pervs or pedos

Let's stay on the subject matter and hopefully those that can't get over the results of the Revolutionary War will discuss matters that mean something to them elsewhere .

Ed A.

 

[Deleted member 2227]

OK Boys and Girls this thread started out really well and raises valid points which were genuinely interesting. The point scoring etc. will stop now. Keep this thread somewhere near topic and keep it vaguely civil. If we were all sat in the same room I'd hope that the conversation would be less aggressive than we see here. There won't be further warnings. Play nicely or spend some time on Corsa world.

 

[John Jones Jr]

Let's stay on the subject matter and hopefully those that can't get over the results of the Revolutionary War will discuss matters that mean something to them elsewhere .

Ed A.

Couldn't agree more.

So, fire ahead and ed-u-ma-cate me please

 

[st13phil]

Let's stay on the subject matter and hopefully those that can't get over the results of the Revolutionary War will discuss matters that mean something to them elsewhere .

Ed A.

Ed - Calm down! If we ever meet I'd be very happy to share a beer with you

 

[RBYCC]

Couldn't agree more.

So, fire ahead and ed-u-ma-cate me please

"Tuning" does alter the power output of any internal combustion engine.

As I previously posted the "rules" that apply to carburettor engines with distributors are the same that apply to modern engines controlled by an ECU.

The only difference is the path to "tune".

The former case requires changes that are mechanical, i.e jets/metering rods in carbs and changing the mechanical advance of the distributor.
It may also include lowering the spark plug heat range a notch.

The latter is done purely electronically by changing the program in the ECU.

The more the stock ECU is "detuned', the greater additional power can be attained with a 'tune".

Case in point is late model AMG engines.
Both the NA 6.3 and the Kompressor 5.5 can gain 10% + with a "tune"
Only look at the yearly evolution and power increase from the factory without making any mechanical changes.

Without getting too involved it's basically changing the fuel delivery and ignition timing.
You advance the spark with a modified curve for optimum combustion and increase the AFR to compliment the spark advance.

It goes further with rpm and speed limiter removal.

You get away from a closed loop always trying to seek 1.00 Lambda (14.7AFR ) and "tune" toward wide open throttle at 12.8-13.0AFR.

Below is linked a very basic SAE paper:

www.sae.org/students/presentations/ecus_and_engine_calibration_201_by_jeff_krummen.pdf

 

[RBYCC]

Ed - Calm down! If we ever meet I'd be very happy to share a beer with you

Not directed toward you..more to the individual that constantly "intrudes" and disrupts and deflects from the subject matter...

It's all good .. ( oops another "creeping Americanism"..sorry)

Life's too short to sweat the small stuff....drats, did it again

Appreciate your offer !!!!

 

[cls55]

RBYCC
Please allow me to pose a question,Why the location of the O2 sensor is crucial to the ECU?Does it matter if the distance is closer the heads or down after or on the collector?You see I had a problem when I swapped the original shorty headers with an aftermarket set which has a longer primaries,I had to relocate the O2 sensors to one of the primaries instead of the intended location which was on the entry pipe of the cat.because the car was acting up.On the original headers the O2 sensors were closer the heads.Hope you get the picture.
Thank you

 

[RBYCC]

RBYCC
Please allow me to pose a question,Why the location of the O2 sensor is crucial to the ECU?Does it matter if the distance is closer the heads or down after or on the collector?You see I had a problem when I swapped the original shorty headers with an aftermarket set which has a longer primaries,I had to relocate the O2 sensors to one of the primaries instead of the intended location which was on the entry pipe of the cat.because the car was acting up.On the original headers the O2 sensors were closer the heads.Hope you get the picture.
Thank you

Were you getting a check engine light or rough idle?
Were the headers installed with or without a tune?
Are you using a wideband O2 sensor?
Is it running without problems with the sensor mounted in the primary?

Basically the O2 sensor even if self heated has to operate in its design temperature about 350C..
Sometimes with long tubes the O2 mounts too far away and it senses a cooler exhaust and tends to enrichen the AFR much like on a cold start.
Location can trick the O2 to too hot or too cold and signal the ECU to lean/enrich based on what is erroneous.

Location can vary from car to car, usually as close to the cylinder head as reasonably possible.
With long tubes the closest location would be at the beginning of the collector.

This is where a dyno or rolling road helps with the tune.
With the engine under load at varying rpm/road speed the AFR can be read from a wide band O2 sensor or even a tail pipe "sniffer".
This will plot the AFR and confirm if the tune is making the most power.

No real definitive answer as there is no exact formula to determine the location.

Did I help ?

Ed A.

 

[cls55]

First, thank you for the answers.I had the engine fluctuates up and down and can hear the throttle bodies (2 on the car)opening and closing when at operating temp.On the advice of a major tuner I relocated the O2 sensors to one of the primaries as a band aid and not a solution(only reads on cylinder),I relocated the O2 sensors again to have them on the collectors.The car is tuned for the headers(shelf tune)not a dyno tune.It seems alright now but I'm concerned about it.I'll upload the pics to show you.
Thanks again

 

[cls55]

Here you go.The first picture is the aftermarket headers,no O2 bungs it's on the cat ,2nd is the OE,note the location of the O2 sensor,the last one is the last mod change.

 

[RBYCC]

First, thank you for the answers.I had the engine fluctuates up and down and can hear the throttle bodies (2 on the car)opening and closing when at operating temp.On the advice of a major tuner I relocated the O2 sensors to one of the primaries as a band aid and not a solution(only reads on cylinder),I relocated the O2 sensors again to have them on the collectors.The car is tuned for the headers(shelf tune)not a dyno tune.It seems alright now but I'm concerned about it.I'll upload the pics to show you.
Thanks again

What you describe is typical of the O2 not getting to operating temp.

I'm seeing in the third pic that you have the bung at the entry to the collector and it seems to be running alright?

You should be okay, but I would schedule a dyno run to make sure your AFR MAP is not leaning out and lowering the power output.

Mods, even "bolt-on" take some fiddling to get them correct.
Even same model car/engine most times will not set up the same.

Ed A.

 

[cls55]

Thank you very much.

 

[esox]

They`re not headers, they`re extractors....

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[RBYCC]

They`re not headers, they`re extractors....
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We've been through this..

If you have nothing constructive to add then start your own thread on what you believe things should be called...

If I were in the U.K., I'd worrying less about "creeping Americanism" words and more about a not so creeping "EUism" politics.....

 

[bpsorrel]

If I were in the U.K., I'd worrying less about "creeping Americanism" words and more about a not so creeping "EUism" politics.....

Now THERE'S a topic!

 

[rorf]

RBYCC

You certainly know your stuff