Zero-tolerance speed limits could put drivers in greater danger.

[renault12ts]

I'm just waiting for one of you to say "Do you want some?"...

What have you got?

 

[Dryce]

This whole thing smacks of nothing but a politically-inspired soundbite measure.

Welcome to Scotland.

Seriously. While politicians just love this soundbite stuff my feeling is that there's an extra dimension of it north of the border these days. I think this is in part because they have even less real work to do so have to be seen 'doing something'.

 

[E55BOF]

Those-on-high are the ones instigating this policy change...road policing and traffic policy in Scotland is ...becoming about dogma and self-righteousness of the politicians and authorities...in the last 18 months the police have been more zealous and petty in Scotland with road enforcement as a result of instructions from on-high with the justification that it is the policy of the Chief Constable to reduce casualties...the man at the top behind these speeding enforcement changes isn't Scottish)...The knee jerk at the top is to tighten the rules and be more didactic rather than do the harder work of making the rules work...

The spirit of Richard Brunstrom lives on...

 

[E55BOF]

What have you got?

A headache.

 

[Dryce]

The spirit of Richard Brunstrom lives on...

My feeling is that since the mid 1990s there has been a gradual reduction in basic respect for the British people by British politicians and by senior civil service and public officials.

They think even more than they did before that they know better than the rest of us - and this mindset allows them to increasingly push policy and management style on us with ever greater dogma.

So we now have a generation of party leaders brought up and nurtured in this environment - with this mindset that they don't really answer to us because at their core they know better than us.

Meanwhile this clique become ever further removed from the rest of us in terms of lifetstyle, peer groups, and socio-economics.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

My feeling is that since the mid 1990s there has been a gradual reduction in basic respect for the British people by British politicians and by senior civil service and public officials.

They think even more than they did before that they know better than the rest of us - and this mindset allows them to increasingly push policy and management style on us with ever greater dogma.

So we now have a generation of party leaders brought up and nurtured in this environment - with this mindset that they don't really answer to us because at their core they know better than us.

Meanwhile this clique become ever further removed from the rest of us in terms of lifetstyle, peer groups, and socio-economics.

Much of the above could also be said about senior management in large companies.

 

[219]

I was on the M40 recently in the outer lane. The car in front was happily doing 70 mph and I was a safe distance behind. With the XC60 I have a good field of view and saw a police patrol car in the inner lane doing about 50mph. The driver of the car in front then spotted the police vehicle too, braked exceptionally hard and when I'd stopped braking hard both of us were doing about 50mph.

I have no issue with the police enforcing speeding conditions, indeed I learned so much on my first speed awareness course, I am about to go on my second, but having had the above experience I'm inclined to believe that a few mph above the limit is a lot safer than motorists blindly panicking about their speed for fear of enforcement - a car with a less safe distance than mine would have been in the back of that car in front.

I presume the limit on the road was 70 ? That driver was an idiot .

The driver in front should be aware of the limit and not have a problem passing a police car travelling well below it : motorway patrols certainly used to be encouraged to patrol at a speed of 10 or more mph below the posted limit to avoid bunching of cars behind them .

 

[219]

I must admit I have always taken advantage of the 10% + 2 MPH including through speed cameras but that has been in the knowledge that my old 190E's speedo over read by a similar amount as did most all speedos of that era. The net result being that if I was exceeding the limit at all it wasn't by much. My old BMW motorcycle is the same and over reads by a good 10%. With so many road side radar signs about it's not hard to know the accuracy of your speedo.

The zero tolerance approach might make some sense if speedos all read absolutely spot on and I have been surprised to find for the first time ever that my W204 speedo does just that. But where that's not the case we are going to find ourselves for example following older cars at 25 mph in a 30 limit because the driver is at an indicated 30 and is not bright enough to realise that the cars speedo is inaccurate.

At higher speeds then speeding becomes more dangerous and I am acutely aware as a motorcyclist of the squared law nature of kinetic energy which means that small increases in speed produced disproportionately longer stopping distances. At the limit of tyre adhesion it applies equally to all vehicles.

I love this example of the square law at work and it never fails to sober me up.

If travelling at 60 mph you could come to a complete stop in 150 feet. (Assuming a deceleration rate of 0.8g) and if a deer was 150 feet ahead when braking began you would not collide with that deer.

What if the speed before braking was only 5 mph faster at 65 mph. At what speed would you hit it ?

The answer is not 5 MPH but 25 MPH and that's the squared law of kinetic energy at work which illustrates the dangers of exceeding the the limit at higher speeds.

Some of my older cars 'seemed' to be a bit optimistic with their indicated speeds ; others not ( just going by roadside speed displays or satnav indication , neither of which represent a legally recognised standard ) .

My last W126 seemed to indicate spot on , as did one of my W124's , all three of my 190's , my S203 , and my R129 ; but a good many of my other cars have indicated noticeably over the speeds indicated by other devices . All the same , I just take the indicated speed as correct and drive to it .

 

[219]

It would but for the fact that every driver thinks of themselves being good at driving when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I have never heard any driver admit that they are rubbish at it even when evidence exists to prove otherwise.

I find it bemusing that otherwise intelligent and rational people are unable to grasp the fact that the speed limit is a upper limit which must not be exceeded and will spend time arguing why it is okay to exceed the limit and break the associated law.

There are no degrees to breaking the law; you either do or don't and preventing excess speed is one offence that should be well within the capabilities of a driver. After all, when cruising on the motorway, for example, many manage to maintain a steady speed well above the limit; why can't they then not maintain seventy or less?

To answer my own question, it is because everyone thinks they are good drivers, exceeding the limit is not seen as breaking the law, the breaking of that law carries no social stigma because 'everyone does it' and then the cherry on the cake is the pathetic cry of, there are more serious things for the police to be getting on with surely.

I have posted on here before , and am happy to repeat , that I think my own driving these days leaves a lot to be desired : there is hardly ever a time when I finish a drive that I don't criticise myself for something , greater or lesser , that I could have done better or differently , if in fact I didn't make an almighty c**k up of something !

I think in my younger days when I was reasonably current with my advanced qualifications I used to be quite a reasonable driver , but now that I am an old fart and haven't had a crit for a number of years I'm sure I am very rusty and probably have innumerable bad habits

 

[219]

Don't most people, pedestrians, get killed at lower speeds so the 30 mph limit is just as important in my opinion. Or am I not being bright!!

The statistic I used to read regularly was that , if hit at 40 most people would be killed ; hit at 20 most would live and , hit at 30 the survival rate was around 50:50 ....

I think this was the justification when they started bringing in the 20 limits around schools and in play streets etc .

Of course there are times and circumstances when even 10 or 15 can be too fast .

 

[BTB 500]

I was on the M40 recently in the outer lane. The car in front was happily doing 70 mph and I was a safe distance behind. With the XC60 I have a good field of view and saw a police patrol car in the inner lane doing about 50mph. The driver of the car in front then spotted the police vehicle too, braked exceptionally hard and when I'd stopped braking hard both of us were doing about 50mph.

And of course 90% of these idiots can't tell the difference between a HATO vehicle and a Police one either.

 

[geraldrobins]

I have posted on here before , and am happy to repeat , that I think my own driving these days leaves a lot to be desired : there is hardly ever a time when I finish a drive that I don't criticise myself for something , greater or lesser , that I could have done better or differently , if in fact I didn't make an almighty c**k up of something !

I think in my younger days when I was reasonably current with my advanced qualifications I used to be quite a reasonable driver , but now that I am an old fart and haven't had a crit for a number of years I'm sure I am very rusty and probably have innumerable bad habits

I admire your honesty and am sure your awareness that you can make mistakes and are not perfect makes you a safer driver. I too make mistakes.

 

[John Jones Jr]

It's to do with revenue raising and controlling the population and nothing more.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[219]

Around schools and the elderly areas there should be firing squads ready to take out speeding cars, but outside of that...

I've driven on dual carriageways that are 40mph which is that ridiculously low for the conditions it's almost natural to speed on them.

Indeed , but the reasons for a particular limit are not always immediately evident .

Sometimes it can be due to conditions that are not present all of the time , yet variable speed limits are few and far between ; it may be that at peak times traffic conditions make a lower limit advisable , or that a location which causes drivers to be driving into low sun at certain times making higher speeds inadvisable , or a multitude of other reasons .

Quite often , reduced limits are brought in because of KSI statistics , and conversely can be difficult to implement without them : the A road outside my house was the scene of a spate of crashes over an 18 month period following resurfacing of the road ( we had two cars written off , and three entering our septic tank as a result of cars leaving the bend 50 yds from our house ; our neighbours all had similar tales to tell ) , despite my logging all the crashes I was aware of and keeping a photographic record ( there is an old thread of mine somewhere on here about this ) , then lobbying police , council , MP's MSP's about it , I was candidly told that little could be done regarding a lower limit for the series of bends approaching my house unless someone was killed ! There had already been a few injury incidents , including a couple of serious ones . As some may recall , I eventually went to the press and ended up with a three page spread ( front page plus pages two and three ) on a Friday edition of the Glasgow Evening Times , showing a selection of my photographs of the various crashes I had documented ; on the Monday the council turned up and started laying Shellgrip throughout the series of bends - since then ( 2006 ) there have only been three or four RTC's that I am aware of .

 

[Dryce]

Much of the above could also be said about senior management in large companies.

But they don't make laws and set rules or set policy on enforcing them.

I can choose not to buy the services or products of most large businesses - whereas those in the government and its civil service echelons can make laws and set enforcement policies.

 

[219]

It's to do with revenue raising and controlling the population and nothing more. Anyone who waffles on about road safety and all that garbage should be campaigning for an end to driving full stop or they should STFU as who are they to decide what the levels of acceptable risk are on the road (for that is what a speed limit defines in essence... don't kid yourself otherwise).

As someone who still has to go out to RTC's and photograph the carnage : two particular incidents stick in my mind

the young male in his Mitsubishi Evo who lost it on a bend well over 100 , travelled sideways down the road on the wrong side and impacted with a young girl in her vauxhall Nova who had been coming the other way , both drivers were killed , and when we cut the girl out ( her car had concertina'd into half its length ) her thigh bones were sticking out below her knees ... she would have been about the age of my own daughter - that one upset me and stays with me to this day .

a car occupied by two males which had travelled at very high speed in a 40 limit built up area , crossed a dual carriageway and impacted with a wall - I had to photograph the cremated corpse of the front seat passenger who had been thrown into the back and the driver's roasted foot , which had to be amputated above the ankle , after it was fused to the floor under the pedals , in order to free him , regardless that he died on the way to the hospital - eye witnesses stated that he was 'squealing like a pig' as he lay trapped in the burning wreck for the few minutes it took the emergency services to arrive - those wishing to help being beaten back by the heat .

There are many others I have been to , but unless you have seen the sort of things I and many others have , you can't know what you're talking about .

 

[MancMike]

Can always come here for a good read...

 

[Deleted member 6183]

But they don't make laws and set rules or set policy on enforcing them.

I can choose not to buy the services or products of most large businesses - whereas those in the government and its civil service echelons can make laws and set enforcement policies.

True.

I was thinking more about those who have the misfortune to work for some of these firms, in this case the policies can play a massive part in how they live their lives.

 

[219]

My view is that the 10% protects people from the different viewing angles of the speedo depending on the driver (look down on some speedos and the needle can appear to be on say 30 but is just above).

They will be instructed by those-on-high. And those-on-high are the ones instigating this policy change.

My view of road policing and traffic policy in Scotland is that in the last two or three years it is becoming about dogma and self-righteousness of the politicians and authorities.

I think a serious question has to be asked because in the last 18 months the police have been more zealous and petty in Scotland with road enforcement as a result of instructions from on-high with the justification that it is the policy of the Chief Constable to reduce casualties.

And yet in that period the casualties went UP! Sounds like a policy fail.

But never mind as result they are making the setup even more zealous.

Scotland seems to becoming a more pernicious and self righteous didactic little state (though with some irony the man at the top behind these speeding enforcement changes isn't Scottish).

My feeling is that practical standards of driving are dropping year on year while the police focus on the wrong things. The knee jerk at the top is to tighten the rules and be more didactic rather than do the harder work of making the rules work.

I do wonder when I hear politicians speak about road and traffic policy (at both Westminster and Holyrood) how many of them actually have what might be a normal pattern of car usage.

I think the 10% guideline is not unreasonable ; while most of us will be able to maintain a set speed most of the time , we are all only human and subject to tiredness , lapses of concentration or other factors which may allow us to unintentionally stray over a speed limit momentarily .

If there is nothing more to it , and the speed is brought back into check , then perhaps little harm is done ; an experienced traffic policeman should be able to exercise judgement and use his discretion where appropriate .

I know this policy comes from 'on high' and passed down through the ranks , but I rather think that , after an initial period where a couple of examples might be made , then things will either return to the use of discretion , or drivers on the whole will adapt to the new situation and drive within their own safety margin under the limits .

There will always be those who will flagrantly ignore the limits , although they are a minority .

 

[cb1965]

As someone who still has to go out to RTC's and photograph the carnage : two particular incidents stick in my mind

the young male in his Mitsubishi Evo who lost it on a bend well over 100 , travelled sideways down the road on the wrong side and impacted with a young girl in her vauxhall Nova who had been coming the other way , both drivers were killed , and when we cut the girl out ( her car had concertina'd into half its length ) her thigh bones were sticking out below her knees ... she would have been about the age of my own daughter - that one upset me and stays with me to this day .

a car occupied by two males which had travelled at very high speed in a 40 limit built up area , crossed a dual carriageway and impacted with a wall - I had to photograph the cremated corpse of the front seat passenger who had been thrown into the back and the driver's roasted foot , which had to be amputated above the ankle , after it was fused to the floor under the pedals , in order to free him , regardless that he died on the way to the hospital - eye witnesses stated that he was 'squealing like a pig' as he lay trapped in the burning wreck for the few minutes it took the emergency services to arrive - those wishing to help being beaten back by the heat .

There are many others I have been to , but unless you have seen the sort of things I and many others have , you can't know what you're talking about .

Er.... not sure how any of that relates to the point I was making, but pat yourself on the back for surreptitiously pointing out how much more superior you are to mere mortals like me