renault12ts
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Zero-tolerance speed limits could put drivers in greater danger.
Er.... not sure how any of that relates to the point I was making, but pat yourself on the back for surreptitiously pointing out how much more superior you are to mere mortals like me
It clearly relates directly to what you wrote in the post I replied to , and refutes it .
No it doesn't. My point is that applying fines/warnings for 41mph instead of 46mph is nothing to do with road safety. Then you go and give two examples of road accidents that you clearly admit involved speeds well in excess of any limits. Laughable logic frankly. Not much point carrying though on as I remember from previous exchanges you are never wrong!
renault12ts
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And you...dog with a bone?
Not what you said :
Describing road safety as 'all that garbage' is hardly a persuasive argument .
The problem with speeding is that all too many exceed limits by more than a marginal amount and what is being attempted here is to bring about a cultural change in the same way as was done with drink driving a few decades ago ; although , personally , I would target mobile phone use first , but it would seem the analysts have picked up excess speed as more of a factor .
Dryce
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But in terms of this finessing of the speed limits these cases don't really have any bearing do they?
It's a bit like the drink drive limit. Before changing it I would have liked to know how many accidents were attributed to one or more of the parties involved being over the limit - and by how much. Arguably if you find a lot of accidents where people are close to the limit and alcohol is to blame then that is a good argument to lower it - OTOH if those being blamed are well above 80 then arguably there is little point - and better enforcement at the existing limit would be the solution.
My feeling is that on the whole there is not a major speeding problem. I took the same position over the A9 speed cameras.
The most important issue is behaviour and basically the police do FA in my view to actually help clean up things like lane discipline, roundabout discipline, signalling (and secondary indication at roundabouts). At the same time there is very little ongoing driver education these days.
John Jones Jr
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Dryce
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Is there really a problem with speeding?
When the A9 speed cameras were being proposed and the advocates for them were talking about speeding being a problem I actually bothered to read the reports. And my understanding from the report was that there wasn't a problem. A minority of drivers on the A9 between Perth and Inverness speeded by a litte. A tiny minority speeded by a lot.
But worse than that - the A9 south of Inverness isn't quite the death road it appears to be. The real problem area in statistical terms is north of Inverness.
So the cameras are IMO a solution to a problem that didn't exist while the significantly dangerous sections of the road to the north have been ignored.
Now this is digressing OT but my relevant point is that the people in Holyrood and the establishment seem to be out of control and simply can't be trusted to set or change policy.
Giantvanman
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But you think you are better equipped to decide and that everyone should be trusted to make their own assessment also
…thus demonstrating why there is a need to take the decision out of the hands of the individual driving god.
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My point was not that marginal speed infractions ( 1 or 2 mph ) were a major problem ; it was taking issue with his statement describing road safety as 'all that garbage' and making the point that there are serious incidents on the road every single day of our lives and that trying to eliminate such incidents is anything but revenue raising ...
EFA and there lies our problem...again!!!! ANyway as I said.. you know best
Thank you , but what you wrote is quite clear for everyone to read .
Nope and nowhere have I said that!
You're doing it again! When will you learn the difference between your opinion and fact? It's not my fault if you fail to take into account the context of the thread when reading a reply. I thought it would be a given for anyone with a modicum of intelligence and it would have saved the story telling diatribe in your first reply to me on this thread to boot! A win win as they say!
John Jones Jr
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In context to this thread and the Op's initial post I'd consider these new speed enforcements or policy as garbage too. I don't recall CB1965 stating road safety full stop was garbage.
He doesn't seem to do context!
renault12ts
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Nor personal attacks.
Dryce
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Well ...
Well I don't think it was as provocative as Pononeer has maybe thought - but it depends how you read it.
There is a point though. If people have an issue with road safety then they have to question driving and the necessity of making journeys.
If you're not willing to ban it or change practices significantly then you have to compromise on what is an acceptable level of risk or safety.
I think in the UK the level is generally acceptable.
My view is that the UK isn't bad and we fret too much - and in Scotland specifically the fretting is escalating to the point where hysteria isn't that far away.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do more - but I'm always reluctant to suggest tampering or changing something that is established and working acceptably without more care than I believe is being demonstrated by the current culprits up top..
I think there is .
I try to comply with the speed limits and any infractions I might make are due to a genuine error on my part and generally not by much ( I hope ) ; if I do get it wrong I will take the punishment on the chin , as I have in the past , but I like keeping my clean licence .
Anyway , as I drive around , trying to keep to the posted limits , I do notice that the majority of other drivers are fairly compliant , but there are still a fair number who are not .
Yesterday , I was driving a marked Fire Service Land Rover ( liveried up and fitted with blue lights etc ) on the M74 approaching the merge with the M8 , a 50 limit at that point ; I had spotted the queuing traffic ahead from a mile or more back as I passed the Polmadie junction but maintained the speed of 50 as long as traffic was free flowing . After lane 1 became an exit lane , going down towards Kinning Park , I had moved over into what was lane 2 with a clear road behind me . Within about 200m of the rear of the queueing traffic I wanted the right hand lane in order to be on course for joining the M8 rather than the M77 ; I was aware of a speeder coming up several hundred metres behind , but he was going to have to slow anyway for the queue , so I trafficated right and moved over with him still 150m+ behind then started to brake gently to come up behind the queue ( which he should have been well aware of since it had been visible for over a mile ) . Did he slow down ? No , he swerved left , and a few seconds later passed me at speed then saw the queue at the last moment and jammed on brakes , barely stopping behind the traffic in lane 1 ! I would class that as a near miss and caused by inattention coupled with excess speed ( I'd estimate he was doing 60 or 70 in the 50 limit with busy traffic ahead ) .
My normal commute takes me down the M74 to exit at the Raith interchange for Hamilton . Anyone who knows the area will be aware of the major roadworks going on at present ; these have resulted in a 50 mph restriction on the approach from several miles back and enforced by average speed cameras ; signage is nothing if not conspicuous and there have been 'pace cars' travelling in the right hand lane with '50 mph' illuminated signs in the rear windows . For the previous few weeks the average speed cameras have been clearly marked 'on test' , but they went live last Monday after being widely publicised . Regardless of this , and even during peak time congestion , there are still a significant number of speeders who are either so blind that they don't see what is in front of them , or just don't care and who speed by significant margins ( just this morning I saw an Arctic come down one of the slips within the restricted area , I was doing an indicated 50 and he was doing significantly more as cars in lane 1 had to make way for him ) . With large chunks of the hard shoulder closed off behind barriers just now , it is quite scary that we share the roads with these people .
Oh , and there was a bad crash on the A9 near Kingussie just this morning , I don't know if speed was a factor . One thing with the A9 , though , is the frequent changes from single carriageway to dual carriageway and back again . I travel the section between Dunblane and Perth quite regularly and have noted since the cameras went in that there just aren't the very high speeders that there used to be , even if you do get those who go up to 80 or so , and may or may not cause problems for others depending on how they go about it .
The point is that there is no one who can categorically prove that the roads would be a much safer place for those extra few mph tolerance of being over the limit being removed yet the standard answer when asked about such things is to trot out the road safety message and accuse people of not wanting safe roads. As I said the only 100% safe road is one on which no one is allowed to drive... limits are nothing more than a risk setting in reality! If we were really interested in safer driving then the driving test would be a lot lot harder to pass and re-tests would be held every few years.... trouble is that doesn't rake in the dosh does it!
IMO we need to stop treating the limits with so much respect in both directions and start questioning the authorities over them. As I said in another thread there is a road near me that is national speed limit but I do not feel it is safe to do faster than 45mph along certain sections due to the proximity of residential housing to the edge of the road.
Just because someone else has decreed that 60mph is safe doesn't mean I should abandon my judgement of it. Yet other drivers will go down that road at 60mph feeling it is safe to do so because someone else on some authoritative committee has decreed it so.
Same goes for roads that are having limits reduced... in many cases one has to ask why? This is where the blanket safety message is applied again and you are basically belittled for questioning it.
At the end of the day the majority of accidents that occur with speed as a factor are because the driver has a complete disregard for the law of the land... not because he is being given an extra few mph or tolerance on the speed limit so the point is all rather moot anyway!
