2 die in M1 wrong way crash

[flango]

"Our driving standards are some of the lowest" ???? Yet our casualty figures are also some of the lowest. One statement is opinion, one is fact, guess which is which.
Casualty figures caused by older drivers are insignificant compared with those of young drivers. Any injury is deplorable but deal with the major issue first if one is really interested in reducing harm rather than headlines.

Don't confuse casualty figures with accident rates and driving standards they are completely different things, its the detail behind them that is key.

Yes we have some of the lowest casualty figures but we also have some of the slowest average speeds in the world. None of the statistics define the age group at fault in an accident only the fact that they were involved in one. The only data set I did see was I think from Northamptonshire police who when they investigated accidents of the over 70 age group 87% of them were down to people over 70.

Another statistic you don't see very often is the actual number of accidents whether there is a casualty involved or not, again the last data set I saw from an insurance company put the UK towards the bottom of the league table.

Also car safety in the UK and Western Europe is much better than other parts of the world such as India for example, this also goes a long way to casualty reduction.

I'm not having a go at any age group in particular as I firmly believe we also should have to re-qualify for our driving license every 3 - 5 years and once you reach the age of 70 it should be every year with a lot stricter medical covering reaction times, eyesight and cognitive ability

 

[flango]

I'd love to see this one to it's end to see if she does pass.

Betty Jones, 92, gets behind the wheel for driving lessons - BBC News

 

[Alex225]

I do personally think that over 70s should have some kind of regular assesments to check they are capable of driving.

My granddad who passed away earlier this year stopped driving at 80 due to his eyesight suddenly being affected by an illness. He was slow reaction wise and shouldn't have been driving so thankfully this forced his hand. It broke his heart as he was a proper old skool petrolhead and who I clearly inherited my passion for cars from.

That said in contrast to this I think that younger drivers should be taught more, I think they should receive better more thorough driving tuition. Compulsory driving courses (bit like Pass Plus) would do them the world of good. Too many pass and then assume they can drive, not realising that all their experience in the coming months/years will define their abilities.

 

[190]

I doubt if compulsory testing will be implemented as all governments are scared of losing pensioners votes. And I'm going to go on believing that as at 61 I don't like the feel of only having 9 years to go.

I do wish though, that retired people who can't mange over 20 mph would have the sense to stay off the road during the rush hour. I had one pull out across my path on a 50 mph stretch when riding home from work on my motorcycle. That puts my life very much at risk and is particularly annoying when I'm wearing full Hi Vis and have the headlight on.

 

[Alf Barnet]

You get poor drivers of all ages, so we make it easy. Every 20 years you take a recertification refresher. Fair on all, and ££££spinner for any government that introduced it.

 

[TheFoX]

People keep going on about over 70's, being re-tested and other sundries. To be honest, for a safer society, everyone should have regular re-tests, not just those over seventy.

How many people have been driving for years without having an eyesight test? I know of one person in their forties who was told by an optician not to drive until they have received their prescription, because their sight had deteriorated so much that they would be a danger.

How many people have no idea how to use an indicator?

How many people think that they have to accelerate hard to join a roundabout to cut off others from joining the same roundabout?

How many people think it is their right to overtake in a pepper pot fashion, causing the overtaken vehicle to have to break to maintain the two second rule?

How many people think that they have the right to overtake, forcing oncoming vehicles to pull over to allow them through?

Driving standards in this country are diminishing across the board. As more and more motorists join our road network, attitudes towards each other are deteriorating. In thirty years of driving, I have personally seen attitudes change.

As well as holding a driving license, I also hold a bike license. I no longer ride a motorbike because attitudes towards bikers by some elements of the driving public are deplorable. I was once overtaken by a car while indicating a right hand turn, almost taking me out, and today I witnessed a Range Rover sitting on the rear wheel of a motorbike travelling at 50mph. If the biker had braked, he wouldn't have stood a chance.

I'm not saying that the law regarding pensioners shouldn't be tightened up, but if we target them, we have to target everyone. Regarding re-testing, could you imagine the current infrastructure coping with the influx of regular testing?

I haven't even touched the foreign element, of people who drive in our country yet passed a test in another country. I have had several near misses with foreign vehicles, especially artics, where the steering wheel is on the wrong side of the cab, and the driver is unaware that his vehicle is straddling my side of the road, forcing me on to the verge.

 

[190]

As well as holding a driving license, I also hold a bike license. I no longer ride a motorbike because attitudes towards bikers by some elements of the driving public are deplorable. I was once overtaken by a car while indicating a right hand turn, almost taking me out, and today I witnessed a Range Rover sitting on the rear wheel of a motorbike travelling at 50mph. If the biker had braked, he wouldn't have stood a chance.

Well I still ride but after 45 years on 2 wheels I agree attitudes to a motorcyclist's safety have deteriorated. Besides an increase in downright arrogance, I blame the fact that cars are too safe these days with multiple airbags and enough electronics to control an F1 car it's no surprise that the 2 tonne Range Rover driver feels truly invincible with no concept of a motorcyclists vulnerability. If I leave a safe distance between me and the vehicle in front there will sometimes be an a**hole that wants to fill it and the scenario you describe occurs with them getting too close even though we may both already be exceeding the speed limit. What they don't realise is a motorcyclist needs to see the road surface sufficiently far ahead to avoid pot holes and be sure the road surface is sound and safe. On wet roads we see how common diesel spills are (a curse on leaky diesel vehicles) when car drivers don't know they even exist. Before now I've turned around and motioned car drivers to back off. So far that's worked but it's a risky strategy when some drivers are stupid enough to want to take you out. I wouldn't usually try it with white van man for example. Increasingly I've tried to ride to police motorcyclists standards and even to look vaguely like one with full Hi Vis and a white helmet. It does significantly reduce the number of a occasions when other road user so obviously fail to see you what ever age they might be.

 

[John]

Next time you come across really crap driving - just have a look at the driver.

Anecdotal yes, but the vast majority I see are old causing problems from wrong lanes to wrong speeds for the road they are on, and from bad positioning to dithering.

That doesn't mean other age groups don't have their issues - but this is what I see...

 

[219]

There used to be an old quip that the two biggest problems on the roads were the under 20's doing over 70 and the over 70's doing under 20 .

While I agree that both groups present problems , I would hazard that the greater danger arises from young drivers travelling at excessive speeds and beyond their experience and capabilities - if only because their escapades tend to result in high speed collisions more of the time , a good example being the recent one of the two young lads who died in the incident highlighted in the video which was publicly released the other day .

While elderly drivers suffering from dementia and other conditions can indeed cause serious incidents like the one being discussed here , I'd say that , in the main , older drivers doddering about merely inconvenience others , or tend to have low speed prangs and car park bumps , which are annoying enough , but not as harmful as two young lads slamming into a wall at 90 mph .

It is also perhaps worth remembering that many elderly drivers will have spent their driving careers in an era when roads were quieter , average speeds were lower and there wasn't the imperative there now seems to be to always travel at maximum permissible speeds . While I would agree that 20 mph on a clear and open road would be too slow ( although in some places and circumstances that speed could be too fast ) I really don't have a problem if I come up behind an OAP on an A road doing 40 or 50 , and will just overtake at the first safe opportunity ; similarly , if they want to do 50 or 60 in the nearside lane of the motorway , I don't see it as a problem as long as their driving is otherwise OK .

It always struck me as an anomaly that , in advanced training , instructors would always state that the speed limit was ' a limit , not a target ' while at other times noting 'failure to make progress' if you drove below it !

 

[TheFoX]

It is also perhaps worth remembering that many elderly drivers will have spent their driving careers in an era when roads were quieter , average speeds were lower and there wasn't the imperative there now seems to be to always travel at maximum permissible speeds . While I would agree that 20 mph on a clear and open road would be too slow ( although in some places and circumstances that speed could be too fast ) I really don't have a problem if I come up behind an OAP on an A road doing 40 or 50 , and will just overtake at the first safe opportunity ; similarly , if they want to do 50 or 60 in the nearside lane of the motorway , I don't see it as a problem as long as their driving is otherwise OK .

Many of the elderly drivers I come across are exactly as you described. They potter along at 40 or 50 in a 60mph zone. This is an acceptable speed for me. Mind you, I have also come across younger drivers doing the same speed.

I have seen a few examples of ridiculously slow speeds from older drivers, but these tend to be on a more limited basis. An old feller drove down the road at a constant 20mph, then ran a red light because he 'didn't' see it. Another old feller drove up the A16 at 30mph in a sixty zone, holding up a long line of vehicles, until he got to the Spalding Golf Club and pulled off. These instances can get annoying.

I think that if someone cannot safely maintain 75% of the road speed, then they should seriously consider handing in their license. The right to be mobile does not give someone the right to hold everyone else back in such a fashion that it becomes dangerous.

 

[flango]

Many of the elderly drivers I come across are exactly as you described. They potter along at 40 or 50 in a 60mph zone. This is an acceptable speed for me. Mind you, I have also come across younger drivers doing the same speed.

I have seen a few examples of ridiculously slow speeds from older drivers, but these tend to be on a more limited basis. An old feller drove down the road at a constant 20mph, then ran a red light because he 'didn't' see it. Another old feller drove up the A16 at 30mph in a sixty zone, holding up a long line of vehicles, until he got to the Spalding Golf Club and pulled off. These instances can get annoying.

I think that if someone cannot safely maintain 75% of the road speed, then they should seriously consider handing in their license. The right to be mobile does not give someone the right to hold everyone else back in such a fashion that it becomes dangerous.

Totally agree with this and maybe minimum speed limits in lanes would fix this like some other countries. Also I saw a first this week on the M62 after J26 Eastbound. This is a managed motorway stretch with the overhead gantry signs Lane 1 was set to 40 mph, Lane 2 at 50 mph and Lane 3 showing NSL sign. Not sure what they were trying to achieve, if it was an experiment but the traffic was tightly packed but flowing nicely

Time for a major overhaul in the UK First job should be to make overtaking on both sides legal, again works in other countries but we still live in the distant past of the 1950's when this legislation was brought in.

 

[nick mercedes]

Totally agree with this and maybe minimum speed limits in lanes would fix this like some other countries. Also I saw a first this week on the M62 after J26 Eastbound. This is a managed motorway stretch with the overhead gantry signs Lane 1 was set to 40 mph, Lane 2 at 50 mph and Lane 3 showing NSL sign. Not sure what they were trying to achieve, if it was an experiment but the traffic was tightly packed but flowing nicely

Time for a major overhaul in the UK First job should be to make overtaking on both sides legal, again works in other countries but we still live in the distant past of the 1950's when this legislation was brought in.

Undertaking is pretty dangerous and banned for good reason.

 

[cb1965]

Undertaking is pretty dangerous and banned for good reason.

Works perfectly well elsewhere so maybe it's just dangerous for the hard of thinking eh?

 

[flango]

Undertaking is pretty dangerous and banned for good reason.

The only danger is uneducated drivers not expecting it, if they obeyed the rules and moved back to the left after overtaking you wouldn't need it. But if we want to speed up traffic flow then we should consider it. Thats takes us back to the root cause of the problem uneducated drivers not taking refresher sessions and a driving test that is far too soft. Couple that with the fact most driving instructors don't actually have a clue themselves as the training they receive to become an ADI is an absolute joke and we wonder why we are in this problem

 

[BTB 500]

Many of the elderly drivers I come across are exactly as you described. They potter along at 40 or 50 in a 60mph zone. This is an acceptable speed for me. Mind you, I have also come across younger drivers doing the same speed.

I have seen a few examples of ridiculously slow speeds from older drivers, but these tend to be on a more limited basis. An old feller drove down the road at a constant 20mph, then ran a red light because he 'didn't' see it. Another old feller drove up the A16 at 30mph in a sixty zone, holding up a long line of vehicles, until he got to the Spalding Golf Club and pulled off. These instances can get annoying.

I think that if someone cannot safely maintain 75% of the road speed, then they should seriously consider handing in their license. The right to be mobile does not give someone the right to hold everyone else back in such a fashion that it becomes dangerous.

I used to drive in Eastbourne on business, and elderly drivers were a recognised hazard/issue there. A very common problem was being unwilling/unable to pull out into traffic e.g. at busy junctions or roundabouts.

Driving too slowly can provoke rash overtaking moves (through frustration), with the scope for serious injury. Of course this wouldn't be reflected in any stats. relating to older drivers if they weren't actually involved in the collision ...

And of course driving slowly can still result in a high speed impact if you're going the wrong way. Not just on motorways, my mum had a head-on when she ended up on the wrong side of a straight single carriageway road

 

[Deleted member 6183]

The only danger is uneducated drivers not expecting it, if they obeyed the rules and moved back to the left after overtaking you wouldn't need it. But if we want to speed up traffic flow then we should consider it. Thats takes us back to the root cause of the problem uneducated drivers not taking refresher sessions and a driving test that is far too soft. Couple that with the fact most driving instructors don't actually have a clue themselves as the training they receive to become an ADI is an absolute joke and we wonder why we are in this problem

Bearing in mind the topic of the thread I don't think that any amount of education is going to prevent old grunters going the wrong way up a motorway.

 

[flango]

Bearing in mind the topic of the thread I don't think that any amount of education is going to prevent old grunters going the wrong way up a motorway.

Fair point

 

[Bellow]

Works perfectly well elsewhere so maybe it's just dangerous for the hard of thinking eh?

How are you safely going to get to the hard shoulder in the event of (say) a blowout when the traffic on your left is over/undertaking you at 70mph?

Many of the old codgers crawling along on single carriageway roads must be wondering 'why don't they just overtake?' I know I am. Why queue behind when passing is possible? That only leads to someone joining the rear of the queue having to overtake them all to make progress. A situation that is not entirely of the codger's making.

 

[BTB 500]

Many of the old codgers crawling along on single carriageway roads must be wondering 'why don't they just overtake?'

That's the problem with slow middle lane hoggers on motorways if you're towing. They almost certainly don't know you're not allowed to use the outside lane to overtake.

 

[wywywywy]

Google isn't my friend, but looking at this article from 2011, 20-24 years are nearly two and a half times more likely to be involved in an accident than the over 70s, and the 17-19 year old only 10% more likely than the over 70s. Perhaps testosterone levels could also be likely causes? No age group is perfect for different reasons, therefore, but the over 70s are in the safer group of the three.

While I agree that there's good and bad drivers in every age group, that particular statistic is useless, because there's far more 20-24 year old drivers than 17-19 or over 70s.

We need percentages.