55k cooling upgrade

[Ginger55k]

But this car has a clutched pulley?.

Yes I know you have a clutched pulley , I only mentioned the fixed as it is an option, but that takes away the engine ECU safeguard when IAT's peak, and even more extreme with the HE bypassed or even removed.

Your correct with the fixed pulley obd reading and torque app for example is not good enough to monitor whats going on in real time.

I cannot give advice on water/meth cooling as for me it was a bit extreme for a daily drive.

Check out the mbworld site for info https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg-81/
as that side of the pond has more info on modding the w211 AMG.

 

[Ginger55k]

Your cooling system is not the same as the full blown KC system that you can buy from the states but more a homebrew version, so I presume the figures your talking about in your post are referencing the Kincaid system.

Yours is a bit of both inside a front mounted tank.

And not as efficient as the kincaid system.

 

[SMed08]

Your cooling system is not the same as the full blown KC system that you can buy from the states but more a homebrew version, so I presume the figures your talking about in your post are referencing the Kincaid system.

Yours is a bit of both inside a front mounted tank.

And not as efficient as the kincaid system.

Ahh that makes sense now.

Is there a diagram in this thread about how it's all set up? I've read through a few times and don't remember seeing one. I'll look again.

 

[SMed08]

Also, I don't seem to see much of a difference if the aircon is on or off. Haven't done proper logging tbh, but just driving around under varying conditions, pulls etc, doesn't seem to make a huge difference. Does the AC compressor still work even if aircon is switched off in cabin?

 

[Ginger55k]

Also, I don't seem to see much of a difference if the aircon is on or off. Haven't done proper logging tbh, but just driving around under varying conditions, pulls etc, doesn't seem to make a huge difference. Does the AC compressor still work even if aircon is switched off in cabin?

Leave air con on, its a tapping from the air con system through the blue lines into the tank through a pipe which chills the water, the other point to note i think at 90% WOT the air con compressor will turn off.

Watch it on a dyno and log, it took 5 back to back pulls before the IAT's started to reach the first trigger point that the ECU will start to retard timing and overfuel.

To be honest if you are doing drag racing the first pull on the dyno the IAT's went down, so on the drag strip job done, its the heat soak after that's the problem.

The trick at the drag strip would be car moving under the threshold of IC pump start i.e. before the charger engages, chills the contents of the tank down, problem is getting sticky tyre burn outs will turn pump on, but if you gently role to the line and floor it you end up then pumping the chilled water through when you really need it.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[SMed08]

Thanks Tony, helpful stuff.

I think, while I've got a clutched pulley, I'll experiment with blocking the HE to see if it makes a difference and could be helpful for what I want. But otherwise, I think for normal driving around I'll leave it flowing as it works well, and with the car always in motion under normal circumstances, it should help.

 

[nickjonesn4]

There is so much precedent on here for the mods and even more on the US forums just stick to what's been done IMO. So much scope to go for between 550 and 750 bhp and monste torque why risk it?

 

[ftb]

Automotive A/C is an on-off system - not designed to run continuously. With that being said, there's nothing wrong with experimenting. Try it you can always go back to start.

 

[SMed08]

There is so much precedent on here for the mods and even more on the US forums just stick to what's been done IMO. So much scope to go for between 550 and 750 bhp and monste torque why risk it?

Not sure what you mean by risking, most or nearly all of the killer chiller type builds don't use a heat exchanger at all. Some even run a bypass valve to switch it off if they already had an existing heat exchanger.

 

[nickjonesn4]

Not sure what you mean by risking, most or nearly all of the killer chiller type builds don't use a heat exchanger at all. Some even run a bypass valve to switch it off if they already had an existing heat exchanger.

I took it from the thread that you didn't have a full KC set up. Apologies if I misunderstood and good luck with it.

 

[SMed08]

I took it from the thread that you didn't have a full KC set up. Apologies if I misunderstood and good luck with it.

Yeah I think I'm still trying to figure it out exactly. All I think I understand is that the killer chiller set up uses AC compressor to cool down the split cooling tank to very very low temps. And that's also what my system was designed to do, and it's been referred to previously in the thread as a killer chiller. But I have no idea what the differences are if I'm being honest, this is all new to me.

However, I'm becoming more certain that my system is not running correctly at the moment, and I will certainly not be trying to block or bypass the heat exchanger at present.



Over the past several days I have driven under a wide spectrum of driving conditions with ambient temperatures ranging from 10 to 23 degrees. Cruising at 65 for long trips. Doing lots of stop and go, and several hard pulls all the way up to 100 (off road). I've done so with AC on and off, and back and forth in many different combinations. The AC on or off makes zero difference to IATs or recovery times whatsoever. Even driving for long periods of times with back to back pulls with AC off, then letting it cool with AC on and trying again, exactly the same results.

Today with ambient temps of 23 degrees, IAT when cruising was about 30 degrees. However once I started to do a few pulls, started off peaking to 52, then after a few pulls to about 62-63 degrees. AC on or off made no difference. It would recover after a few minutes to 45 degrees if I drove around, or 50 if I was stationary.

Popped the bonnet, felt the front tank and it was very warm, not hot but warm. Opened the lid, water is circulating well so I'm assuming IC pump is working. But water is definitely still warm, even if leaving AC running for long period of time.

The metal pipes and fitting running to the tank and connected to the blue plastic hoses are freezing cold, and the AC works very well in the cabin, so I'm not too concerned with the amount of freon in the system. There are 2 valves inline with the blue plastic hoses to the tank, and both are in the on position.

So now I'm wondering if there is air in the system that needs bleeding. It sounds like it to me, but I'll need to dig into it tomorrow. I'm on night shifts this week and need to get some sleep.

I have no idea how to bleed it, so will need to read up. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Ginger55k]

With reference to my previous post (142) yours is not a full blown KC system, so stop comparing with it, all 55 owners will agree that under the bonnet is hotter than the sun.

Ways to improve IAT'S on the 55 are well documented ie. split cooling, front or rear mounted tank, upgraded HE, and of course a full blown Killer chiller.

So you have a split system an uprated HE, a front mounted tank with a greater volume of cooling water and a simple pipe /coil inside utilising the AC.

There will be no air in the system as the tank is at the highest point and is self venting.

Trust me just the split cooling reduces IAT on its own by around 10 degrees.

I think your expectations of temperature drops as reported by the Kincaid system and comparing it to this then your going to be disappointed, you could however throw another grand at it to get the results you are trying to achieve.

 

[Ginger55k]

Mercedes | Killer Chiller

 

[Ginger55k]

Today with ambient temps of 23 degrees, IAT when cruising was about 30 degrees. However once I started to do a few pulls, started off peaking to 52, then after a few pulls to about 62-63 degrees.

You do understand that big spinny thing between the engine rotates at 23000rpm at WOT compressing the air generating huge amounts of heat, i think most 55 owners would like those figures on a 23 degree day.

 

[daveenty]

You do understand that big spinny thing between the engine rotates at 23000rpm

Love these technical terms.

 

[Ginger55k]

Love these technical terms.

Sat here on night shift looking at a bigger spinny thing, but thats only doing 10905 rpm and considerably hotter

 

[SMed08]

With reference to my previous post (142) yours is not a full blown KC system, so stop comparing with it, all 55 owners will agree that under the bonnet is hotter than the sun.

Ways to improve IAT'S on the 55 are well documented ie. split cooling, front or rear mounted tank, upgraded HE, and of course a full blown Killer chiller.

So you have a split system an uprated HE, a front mounted tank with a greater volume of cooling water and a simple pipe /coil inside utilising the AC.

There will be no air in the system as the tank is at the highest point and is self venting.

Trust me just the split cooling reduces IAT on its own by around 10 degrees.

I think your expectations of temperature drops as reported by the Kincaid system and comparing it to this then your going to be disappointed, you could however throw another grand at it to get the results you are trying to achieve.

All understood. And once I realised this isn't a KC kit, I wasn't expecting similar results.

I'm simply trying to ascertain if this system is functioning optimally. As stated, there is zero effect if the AC is on or off, and that simply doesn't make sense to me if the system is working.

Does this custom AC/coil system offer any benefit at all over a simple split cooling set up?

When you drove it, could you tell any difference between AC on or off? Because if you did, then I think something is currently wrong. If you found it to be exactly the same when on or off, then I will probably not pursue this custom set up any further and possibly explore alternative options.

 

[SMed08]

Sat here on night shift looking at a bigger spinny thing, but thats only doing 10905 rpm and considerably hotter

That makes two of us on night shifts. Though my patients may only spin about 1-2 rpm if I let them.

 

[Ginger55k]

All understood. And once I realised this isn't a KC kit, I wasn't expecting similar results.

I'm simply trying to ascertain if this system is functioning optimally. As stated, there is zero effect if the AC is on or off, and that simply doesn't make sense to me if the system is working.

Does this custom AC/coil system offer any benefit at all over a simple split cooling set up?

When you drove it, could you tell any difference between AC on or off? Because if you did, then I think something is currently wrong. If you found it to be exactly the same when on or off, then I will probably not pursue this custom set up any further and possibly explore alternative options.

The system is working correctly, leave the AC on, its not an instant reduction in water temp, its just no way that efficient, and you will be waiting a long time to recover those low temps if your driving with the SC engaged or worse stood at idle with the resulting heat soak.

A simple split system may only hold a pint of water more than stock, yours is much more, it was never designed to compete with a full on KC system which would have a lot less water in the system to make it more efficient for the KC system.

You stated earlier 23 degree ambient 30 degree IAT, I think its working, you seem to be looking for a problem that is not there, maybe you could comment more on your alternative options, what is it your trying to achieve?.

 

[SMed08]

The system is working correctly, leave the AC on, its not an instant reduction in water temp, its just no way that efficient, and you will be waiting a long time to recover those low temps if your driving with the SC engaged or worse stood at idle with the resulting heat soak.

I'm not talking about an instant reduction in water and/or IAT. What I'm saying is that after extended periods of driving with the AC off, the front tank water temp is the same when I drive for an extended period of time with AC on under similar driving conditions. Granted, this is rather crudely assessed by using my hand to feel temp. But IATs are essentially identical as well.

A simple split system may only hold a pint of water more than stock, yours is much more, it was never designed to compete with a full on KC system which would have a lot less water in the system to make it more efficient for the KC system.

I get that it's a split system with a front tank, and some sort of involvement with the AC to assist tank cooling. The front tank split system is extremely common, used all the time in the states.

You stated earlier 23 degree ambient 30 degree IAT, I think its working, you seem to be looking for a problem that is not there, maybe you could comment more on your alternative options, what is it your trying to achieve?.

The 30 IAT was with cruising at 50mph and no pulls into boost. That seem essentially about the same with a simple front tank split cooling system. After one pull, IAT then didn't drop below 40 degrees after 10+ minutes of cruising with the AC on.


The front tank split cooling system is definitely a tried and tested good idea, and obviously is working well to drop IATs over stock cooling, not disputing that at all. But after extended driving conditions with AC off and on, I can't see any discernible difference in IATs at all, I'm just asking myself if the custom AC assisted cooling set up (can't call it KC) is adding any benefit.

Now I fully appreciate it is never going to be as efficient as a true KC to drop IATs, but surely I should be able to tell some sort of difference in IATs when the AC is on. This will obviously be better demonstrated with proper data logging of IATs, and I can also get a temperature reading of the front tank.