ADVICE PLEASE - NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION - M1 SOUTHBOUND MIDNIGHT - VARIABLE SPEED LIMIT

[rockits]

Smart motorways, constant roadworks, varying speed limits over short spaces of time, massive amounts of signage everywhere. Quite simply information overload. And we all know how that turns out so lets thank our beneficent government for all this shit.

Thanks & agreed. For me it was information overload. Too much to deal with all at the same time. If I am not capable of dealing with all this and I should be then I should be taken off the road and my license revoked as I would be a danger to other road users. My driving record over the last 28 years is pretty good in my defense compared to the norm or others I would suggest.

 

[GeeJayW]

I too will be interested in how this all turns out.

I've just driven over to Leeds and back through the new 'Smart' motorway sections on the M62. On the way out, in reasonable flowing traffic, the limit changed instantly from nothing showing to 50 mph pretty much as we passed under the gantry and was delimited at the next gantry 200-300 yards later. With so little time to change speed, I don't think I was at 50mph on the way into that section or on the way out. I could have hit the brakes, but that would have caused chaos.

On the way back there were instances of 40mph showing together with lane closures. So I duly dropped to 40 mph and move over accordingly. I was the only driver than did this and boy was I out of step with the other motorists. Had trucks bearing down on me and then overtaking. Just ridiculous. Plus apart from one short section, there was nothing happening in the so called 'closed' lanes. No people, no cones, just empty road. In the end, I had to just go with the flow rather than be a mobile chicane. Quite hairy actually and I've been driving for more than 40-years with a clean license and have passed the advanced motorist test 10 times. It's no surprise that folks get confused.

 

[E55BOF]

Just watch out for the HADECS installations and adjust your speed where there is one...

 

[PenelopePitstop]

There's 60s grace period when speed limit changes on gantry. I know the feeling of driving according to speed limit and being slow one. And then you have lorry sitting on your back ... In such cases, I trust my TomTom to tell me, where camera is and just drive a bit faster.

On M25, they changed how gantries work and instead of showing that limit ends, gantries are just off. It's quite confusing for some drivers and some people drive slower keeping to previous speed limit, some go to 70 and above. It's creating dangerous situations.

 

[rockits]

Thanks, that is good to know. I'm going to call the camera & ticket line this morning to find out as that should apply in this case. The previous speed limit was 60mph and it went to 50mph on this gantry which was the first one and the one the camera was active on. I found this as well that seems to reinforce this point:
Speed Camera Reduction Grace Period

I will let you all know what they say and what happens.

 

[GeeJayW]

There's 60s grace period when speed limit changes on gantry. I know the feeling of driving according to speed limit and being slow one. And then you have lorry sitting on your back ... In such cases, I trust my TomTom to tell me, where camera is and just drive a bit faster.

On M25, they changed how gantries work and instead of showing that limit ends, gantries are just off. It's quite confusing for some drivers and some people drive slower keeping to previous speed limit, some go to 70 and above. It's creating dangerous situations.

That's exactly what was happening on the M62-M60 yesterday. The delimiter was shown on the exit slips, but not on the main carriageway. There were quite long sections where there was no clue as to what the speed limit was. It's bloody stupid. Drivers need clear information.

Edit - just found this link,
How to drive on a smart motorway

It says if no limit is shown on the gantry, national speed limit of 70 mph applies...

 

[markjay]

That's exactly what was happening on the M62-M60 yesterday. The delimiter was shown on the exit slips, but not on the main carriageway. There were quite long sections where there was no clue as to what the speed limit was. It's bloody stupid. Drivers need clear information.

I alwayd assumed a speed restriction sign applies until the next junction or until there's a different speed sign?

At any rate, I will be heading from London to Northampton up the M1 shortly... we'll see how that goes.

 

[GeeJayW]

I alwayd assumed a speed restriction sign applies until the next junction or until there's a different speed sign?

At any rate, I will be heading from London to Northampton up the M1 shortly... we'll see how that goes.

Me too. I was always taught that a posted speed limit applied until a different limit or delimiter sign is shown.

 

[markjay]

Me too. I was always taught that a posted speed limit applied until a different limit or delimiter sign is shown.

I suppose the highway code should be amended to say that a gantry displaying nothing at all is in fact equivalent to an NSL sign...?

 

[Yugguy]

Doing rugby to Walsall Wednesday was the same. 50. 60. 50. 70. 50. 60. 50.

 

[Ted]

Doing rugby to Walsall Wednesday was the same. 50. 60. 50. 70. 50. 60. 50.

Sounds like Mrs Ted’s vital statistics :/

 

[st13phil]

^ Brave man!

 

[rockits]

Just spoke to them and the grace period is there for 60 secs after the camera is activated and Highways turn these on/off. In my case that camera had been set to that speed and had been activated 1hr 18mins before I passed it. I expect that generated a nice fat income that night.

The moral of the story is jump on your brakes early and make sure your speed is wiped before you hit the camera. In essence you could do 70mph in a 40mph area in between the cameras and just accelerate sharply then brake sharply at the start/end. If you cause an accident then so be it as it will be the person behinds fault and not yours.

Surely it can't be safe to create conditions where someone can do 70mph in a 40mph area and not be prosecuted for speeding. Slightly flawed idea. Madness!

 

[whitenemesis]

These cameras aren't the averaging type then?

 

[Stratman]

"brake sharply at the start/end. If you cause an accident then so be it as it will be the person behinds fault and not yours." Not necessarily, as 'crash for cash' prosecutions have shown. If you brake sharply on a motorway unless to avoid an accident it may well be considered careless or possibly even dangerous driving.

"someone can do 70mph in a 40mph area and not be prosecuted for speeding." Not true. A following police car could report the offender. It is possible to be prosecuted, just not by using the camera evidence.

 

[rockits]

These cameras aren't the averaging type then?

No, just fixed at the gantry and white lines point.

 

[PenelopePitstop]

A lot of drivers do this, speed up after gantries/cameras. I believe M3 has average speed limits cameras now.

 

[rockits]

"brake sharply at the start/end. If you cause an accident then so be it as it will be the person behinds fault and not yours." Not necessarily, as 'crash for cash' prosecutions have shown. If you brake sharply on a motorway unless to avoid an accident it may well be considered careless or possibly even dangerous driving.

Well you would think so wouldn't you. This is exactly what I said to the Police agent on the phone earlier and she couldn't disagree. You are braking for a reduced speed so are more than entitled to brake hard/sharp as that is exactly what they have created and are instructing you to do. I specifically asked.....so I should have braked hard or quicker then? She said yes. I said isn't that a little bit dangerous and creating less smooth conditions. She agreed again and said yes. Which is entirely what they are trying to resolve and not achieve....go figure!

"someone can do 70mph in a 40mph area and not be prosecuted for speeding."

Not true. A following police car could report the offender. It is possible to be prosecuted, just not by using the camera evidence.

I am not sure it is likely we would see a police car prosecuting people for speeding at these mid points amongst all; this other chaos going on would we? I agree with what you are saying but in reality it is unlikely.

Just put some clear average speed cameras in and it all works then everybody is happy.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Why do you need to brake hard? The speed limit signs are visible well in advance allowing you to back off the throttle or brake gently if absolutely necessary.

Unless there’s an immediate hazard following the first variable speed limit sign, then significant reductions in speed limit will be achieved in several steps, eg 70, 60, 50, 40 rather than 70, 40, 40, 40.

 

[markjay]

Just drove up the M1 from London to J17 and back.

I can see why in theory Smart Motorway is a good idea. By constantly changing the speed limit, traffic can be kept following (albeit at a slower pace than usual) rather than having everyone drive at 70mph and then screech to a halt. And this part actually works OK (eesh).

The issue is with the roadworks. The 50mph speed restrictions appear to be a different layer of signage, marked with simple temporary metal signs (not gantry-based digital signs).

The combination of both can be quite confusing.

At one point, there was an NSL sign marking the end of a 50mph restriction due to roadworks. It was virtually leaning against the base of the gantry near the outer lane. The gantry itself was showing 60... so there were a 60 and NSL signs side-by-side. Should have taken a photo...

Of course I understand that they meant to say that the roadworks speed restriction is replaced by a Smart Motorway speed restriction... but you do have to constantly check and adjust your speed when driving through these bits. Not great fun when you spend a couple of hours driving (and even less so when the weather is bad).

Incidentally, while everyone was slowing down for the gantry speed limits, the roadworks ones was generally ignored with only a handful of cars (myself included) actually slowing-down to 50 mph. I should add that the lanes were at their normal width and there was no workforce in sight, so driving at 70mph would have not felt unsafe. I suppose that the physical metal signs cannot be easily removed and reinstated so they are just left there for the duration. And it seems that drivers smartened-up to the fact that the speed cameras only adjust to the Smart Motorway speed limits, but apparently not to the roadworks speed limits (unless there are specific temporary cameras for the roadworks...).

I think that in the first instance the roadworks speed limits should be incorporated into the Smart Motorway system, so that there's only one set of signs (on the gantries) controlling speed on a given stretch of road.

Then, those of us with connected cars, should have the option of having the temporary speed limit downloaded to the car's speed limiter automatically, so that it is adjusted as you drive under the gantry (or rather, as you are approaching it).

A combination of Distronic and automatically adjusted speed limiter will ensure safe sailing through Smart Motorway speed restrictions and roadworks.

Of course once all cars are fully autonomous, new possibilities will become available... including computer managed traffic that connects to all cars and provides routes and speed data.

But until then.... watch those gantries.